[goose]

I have a new overgrown plot.  mostly long grass/few brambles and i think a few rose bushes.  we have cleared the long grass only by raking it up to see what is beneath.  nothing too nasty but lots of the bamble/rose stumps and short grass.

i have read the rotovating theads but still dont know what to do next.

do i

1. cover the whole lot with black plastic and tackle each area by hand.
2. rotovate the whole lot with a bit of the above.
3. use roundup. (if i used this method, i think i read that it wouldnt get rid of bramble type things and i would have to wait to plant anything for a while???).

i want to get my pots/onions/ garlic in soon so dont want to waste too much time but because of the time of year i need to make a decision quickly. 

your knowledgeable advice is, as always, so appreciated.

[Yorkie]

Roundup won't work at this time of year so that's not an option for another month or two at least.

Rotavating will chop up grass roots and, unless you are prepared to rotavate frequently over the next season, all you'll do is get lots more weeds.  Plus you can't rotavate over bramble roots.

I think your only realistic option at this time of year is to dig each area at a time.  Start with the first things to go in, i.e. where you want onions and garlic to go. 

So long as you get the black plastic down before weeds start growing actively you'll be ok.

[Trillium]

My suggestion is that you cover the areas with cardboard and work a section at a time. Grasses have roots that need to be picked out, same with bramble roots which can spread quite far. To simply rotovate your plot without clearing out as many roots as possible, is to simply exponentially  multiple your future weed/grass root problems as every little bit chopped up and scattered will simply re-root. A rotovator is simply used to prep soil and/or to mix in hummus matter, its not a 'weeder' of sorts. Sorry, but you'll need to make a bit of time to clear the roots out for your veg crops to succeed.

[Salmo]

I agree with covering and tackling it bit by bit. It would be useful to go over the plot carefully before you cover it and dig out as many brambles/ docks/ dandelions as you can. It will take time but will pay dividends.

Roundup will work if there is green leaf and the mild days we are forecast would be good. The leaves need to be dry and there must be 6 hours of dry afterwards. You can plant immediately after application with no risk to your crop. After 10 days you can dig out/rotovate any roots as the Roundup will have penetrated to its full extent and they will be dead. They may still look alive but they will not grow any more.

There is a recommendation for treating brambles with Roundup. I seem to remember that a high concentration is applied to freshly cut or abraided stems. You will have to look on the Roundup instructions for details. It may just be for the stronger commercial "Roundup Bioactive" used by farmers and foresters. Maybe someone knows more about this and can tell us about it.

[jolly jen]

no dont rotovate,,it may seem the quickest way to get your plot done,,my iv e seen from experience it doesnt help,
last feb three of us on my site were al new plot holders next to each other,
i hand dug,bit my bit in sections.
the other two rotovoate,
there'll weeds n grass grew back at a alarming rate where mine didnt .....check my allotment photos out in the allotment galley befpre and after, ,,please comment.
thank you

[GaryH]

In Sept I rotavated the whole of my plot, removed the "big" weeds, then covered with black plastic until the 3rd week in Oct. I then pulled back the plastic, 4ft at a time and hoed, then planted Aquadulce, Onions and Garlic. By the end of the day half was left a still covered. Went back approx 3 weeks ago to move my Raspberries and the covered area, was like cutting through butter.

Rotavating, then covering, then leaving worked for me.

[goose]

Thank you all so much for your, as always, informative advice.

After spending a couple of days cutting down, i started to dig today.  im going to try and do a bit at a time as suggested and have covered what i have done with plastic. 

Once i have got my onion/garlic and pots in i may try roundup in another area and see how it goes. 

whilst digging, im finding lots of deep roots (not sure what from), possibly brambles but it is going to be a long job picking them out by hand, but hey hoe .  its difficult to pick the grass out by hand as it feels quite heavy/clay like ground....my next challenge

i have spoken to some other plot holders and they seem to have different types of soil all over their plot, so im hoping its going to get better.

Thanks again for all of your kind responses

[jolly jen]

we done half our plot my hand last year and just starting the other half this year

[goose]

i think that is definately the way to go, im just too impatient and want everything done NOW

[Aidy]

Thank you all so much for your, as always, informative advice.

After spending a couple of days cutting down, i started to dig today.  im going to try and do a bit at a time as suggested and have covered what i have done with plastic. 

Once i have got my onion/garlic and pots in i may try roundup in another area and see how it goes. 

whilst digging, im finding lots of deep roots (not sure what from), possibly brambles but it is going to be a long job picking them out by hand, but hey hoe .  its difficult to pick the grass out by hand as it feels quite heavy/clay like ground....my next challenge

i have spoken to some other plot holders and they seem to have different types of soil all over their plot, so im hoping its going to get better.

Thanks again for all of your kind responses

Brambles are normally fairly shallow rooted, if its deep then I would suspect possibly red shank or horsetail, both of which are a royal pain in the butt to clear and you have to learn to live with them. First thing I would do is to try and identify the weeds, speak to other people on the site to see whats around. I am a great fan of the rotovator, but as mentioned it needs to be done a regular basis, and the first year is spent more clearing than growing, I would be tempted to dig as much as you can when the ground is dry enough and get as much of the roots out as you can. Having decided where your going to put spuds in, why not just grow new tats this year so the ground is being dug over sooner than where the main crops go, also try and grow fast growing crops this year so you can continue to clear whilst your growing as the plants that need time will just get swamped. And the last bit of advice is to never ever give up.

[goose]

Thanks for the advice.  ive been digging up some white and some reddish roots about worm thick.....ive lots of worms and i keep thinking they are roots .

ive taken 2 soil samples.  the first bed ive dug shows as massively alkaline 7.5 (i wanted to grow onions and garlic there so may have to rethink).  the 2nd patch i plan to dig is showing neutral 7.0.  i read somewhere that i need to add lime but im wondering if its too late to do that now....any thoughts?  also, is there any other suggestions to increase the acidity slightly as i wanted to get the pots in soon too.

[Aidy]

personally I wouldn't get to obsessed with chemical make up unless there are extreme ranges. As regards to liming the bed, probably yes but if you do as we do with the brassicas, scratch some lime in around where your going to transplant just before, not to much and put a little water around the hole before you put the plant in to stop the roots burning. Most plants are a lot hardier than think they are and will grow quite happily. You may find the reading a little false as the ground is has been left dormant and find stable out once it is cultivated again.

[goose]

Aidy, thanks so much, you are living up to your 'hero member' status

[Salmo]

If your tests show pH readings of 7.5 and 7.0 then under no circumstances should you lime your soil.

7.5 is very high and, unless you are on a limestone / chalky soil, I would think someone has been applying lime regularly without testing first. At that pH you will probably see manganese defficiency in your crops as they grow away in the Spring. Onions with pale tips, lettuce and beet standing upright with pale blotches and later scarred patches on the leaves. Potatoes will probably be scabby.

Crops like a pH of around 6.5. The pH scale is logrithmic and 1 unit increase in pH is 10 times the amount of lime present.

Better high pH than acid. If you keep adding organic matter it will reduce over a few years. Do not put mushroom compost on as it contains lime.

[tallulah]

I would add my voice to the 'don't rotovate' vote - it really will increase your workload in the long run.  Tiny shreds of roots will grow and can swamp your neat little rows of seedlings.  If its couch grass, its a disaster - v difficult to weed out from very delicate seedlings.  I know from bitter experience that the only way is hard work!  But you'll get there - just concentrate on one small patch at a time.  And don't panic that you'll get behind with sowing and planting.  Its very early in the year, and you've plenty of time.