[Turnba]

I am growing Alicante tomatoes, a standard cordon variety. I know to cut the side shoots off, but I wondered if that includes the shoots that appear down at the cotyledons too?

I usually leave them on and end up with very wide and bushy plants with multiple canes for support. Is the plant more efficient without these shoots?

Thanks,

Michael.

[DD.]

All the side shoots should be removed, leaving just one vertical stem.

It's not just the efficiency of the plant, there's also ventilation issues with multiple stems.

[Steveharford]

As DD says all side shoots should be removed and the ones you are talking about are just that, just lower down.

[Growster...]

DD will probably want to re-plant the plant pinches, and you'll probably get more plants that way ...

(I've just done that, but for goodness sake, don't tell him...;0)

[DD.]

I did think about it, but bit my tongue.

Can you put plasters on tongues?

[Headgardener22]

I have seen it suggested that you can grow two or three sideshoots off a single root system but it depends how much space you've got around the plant.

In warm climes (such as California) I've seen that they don't bother to grow Indeterminate varieties as Cordons, relying on the fact that they have more sun and warmth to ripen the fruit.

Also, if you look at how they grow them in commercial greenhouses, they lay a single vine on the ground and grow lots of sideshoots up the supports.

I suppose what I'm saying is that whilst the conventional way to grow Indeterminate tomatoes is as a single vine cordon, it isn't the only way. If you've space and sun other ways may give more fruit per plant.

[DD.]

Also, if you look at how they grow them in commercial greenhouses, they lay a single vine on the ground and grow lots of sideshoots up the supports.

But we're not commercial growers are we? We tend to go for quality and not quantity. The extra flavour is well worth the extra attention we can lavish on our charges.

[Headgardener22]

Also, if you look at how they grow them in commercial greenhouses, they lay a single vine on the ground and grow lots of sideshoots up the supports.

But we're not commercial growers are we? We tend to go for quality and not quantity. The extra flavour is well worth the extra attention we can lavish on our charges.

DD: I grow different cultivars in different ways for different purposes. Some I grow for quantity (such as paste tomatoes) when I let more than one sideshoot grow; some I grow for taste - in which case I start with a tasty cultivar and treat it well; some I want early - so I grow an early ripening variety. My point was that a single cordon isn't the only way.

Turnba asked about "efficiency" and I would suggest that commercial growers do grow efficiently. Letting more sideshoots grow will probably get more weight of fruit but it will also probably mean that fewer fruits will ripen.

[DD.]

That's all fine and dandy, growing everything for all purposes, if you have the space.

I was replying to the original post asking about one specific variety.

[Growster...]

"Turnba asked about "efficiency" and I would suggest that commercial growers do grow efficiently. "

They don't always it seems, we had a great friend here who defied all commercial logic, and grew tomatoes commercially with very little concern for speed or efficiency.

His tomatoes reached only a few small outlets, and were well known for the fact that they were local, within a couple of miles, and had received no artificial fertiliser etc!

I know the guy well and can vouch for his quality and skill! I saw him a few weeks ago, and found that this is the first year that he isn't growing any, well, he is long retired by many years!

Some people are just better than others, and I admire that!

[JayG]

Don't know whether Turnba is growing his/her toms outdoors or indoors, nor do I know just how much paranoia about excessive humidity is the 'correct' amount  , but in my GH I wouldn't grow a cordon even as a semi-bush because the denser foliage increases the local humidity as well as the number of leaves pressed against the glass where they trap condensation, which must also increase the chances of encouraging both blight and botrytis.

Up to now I've only grown bush types in a cold frame (lid off) and in around 10 years they've probably developed blight about 3 times, but the variety (Red Alert) is quite quick so haven't failed to get a good crop yet (although most of them had to be ripened indoors one year.)

I have had cordons develop two growing points while my back was turned, and with both stems supported they did well, but you do need to keep your eye on the passage of summer to make sure you don't get too greedy and finish up with a load of undersized fruit too small to ripen (guess how I know that?  )

This year's experiment in the GH is a single Marmande plant, which apparently is a semi-bush - I've put it near the door so it gets the best possible ventilation, but haven't decided how best to grow it yet (it certainly appears to be a rather vigorous variety at the moment and I shall probably make it up as I go along!)

[Growster...]

We bought six Marmande this year, and they're growing as cordons - so far!

Do you reckon that they'll still get to five trusses?

[JayG]

Think some other folk have grown Marmande, although there are several variants of it.

Personally I don't know what to expect - my poor little brain struggles with the concept of 'semi-bush' which seems to be neither one thing nor the other! 

[Headgardener22]

My own experience with Marmande is that they only grow to about 4ft high and they truss spacing is 15-18 inches. So no, I didn't get five trusses on a single vine, However, they seemed to generate sideshoots quickly so I tended to train two additional sideshoots and treated them as additional cordons. That way I got plenty of trusses and ripe fruit.

[JayG]

So, Marmande is naturally a bush, and I'm naturally careless with pinching out - could be a fruitful combination!