[Growster...]

Bearing in mind the mantra that liming and manuring should never be done together, does not the beneficial quality of a good liquid manure still feed the veg, while the lime quietly brings up the PH?

The only reason why I am looking at this very seriously, is that I tidied up my shed yesterday, and found my Brannan PH meter, all in working order! I stuck it in the soil at home, for a trial, and only got to the line between 4 and 5, which is not good!

I'm also reading one of C.H.Middleton's books again, and just happened to be on the chapter about all this...

[solway cropper]

If it's one of those probe type meters they are notoriously unreliable. The only way you can get a true reading is with a soil test kit. If you can grow decent brassicas I very much doubt you pH is as low as 4-5.

[fatcat1955]

A good indication of soil ph are the weed's that grow strongly. Creeping buttercup and nettle's are a good sign that you have acidic soil.

[Growster...]

It's actually the way - or not - to apply liquid fertilizer, when the site also really needs liming, which is the main question here...

The two elements shouldn't go in together, and I'm wondering what others think, but thanks for your replies, Solway and Fatcat!

[crh75]

Manure is acidic, so adding it with lime (alkaline) will create a chemical reaction - salt and water I think.

You probably only need to wait a couple of weeks between each application - unless it is very dry.

[safetrade]

so does that mean you can add lime and fish blood and bone at the same times? now im confused 

[crh75]

I was wondering that.... not sure!

[Growster...]

Many thanks, CRH and Safe, that's exactly what I'm trying to find out!

Yes, the two do react, but what I can't understand is, - so what, if the plant reacts positively?

I ususally pop in a little lime when I plant out brassicas, but that is a localised handful. I'd rather lime over-winter, and let it do it's magic over a period of time.

Mind you, we chuck a weal solution of liquid manure, or Comfrey/Nettle tea everywhere weekly during the growing season, so perhaps there's a clue there!

[crh75]

Just been reading this article.  In the section "Nitrogen Loss From the Soil System" it say that nitrogen in the form of amonia will be lost as a gas (volatilization) in alkali soils.  So, when liming the soil you will create areas of high pH that will drive off the nitrogen. 

This leads to the question: after liming the soil how long will it be before the pH has stabilised or is evenly distributed?

[JayG]

Note that the same article also suggests that:

Incorporation of these N sources will virtually eliminate volatilization losses.

This is something I've been saying for some time - ammonia is soluble, so if the reaction takes place underground it will dissolve in the soil water and therefore still be available to plants. It is also why sprinkling lime on top of manure is the worst option because the reaction will take place on the surface so the ammonia will be lost to the air.

Limestone is much less soluble than slaked lime so its effect on raising the pH is slower, although that partly depends on how acidic the soil was to start with. It is by far the most common choice for gardeners these days.

[crh75]

It is an interesting subject.

[JayG]

It is an interesting subject.

It's been my favourite subject since I was given my first chemistry set at the age of 11, although I wouldn't guarantee that anyone other than you and I share that interest!      

[ConfusedGardener]

I also have the same dilemma. We bought a property late last year, and didn't get a chance to do anything on the land till a couple of months back. With all the rain we've been having we've hardly got anything done, but we want to get some crops going this season. The soil is mildly acidic, and we need to both lime and dig in manure, on top of deep digging the soil - it's full of big stones/rubbish and some parts have a lot of heavy clay that goes down at least 3.5 feet!

After reading the replies here what I'm thinking of doing is to remove as much deep clay as I can, and replace with gravel + small stones + a bit of farmyard manure + lime between 3.5 feet and 2.5 feet, and on top of that topsoil + manure. Then wait a couple of weeks and lime the topsoil. Hopefully I can then start planting out after two more weeks.

Does that make sense?

[bravemurphy]

There are a few with us that have been doing it longer than I have been alive and they dig a trench put pigeon or chicken litter in fill it up with the soil, then dib the holes for their brassicas put a good bit of lime in the hole put the plant in and put lime around the plant too.

The cabbages that grow are just tremendous.

[Growster...]

It seesm from all this, that 'spot' liming at the bottom of the planting hole may be the answer this year, and once the time has elepsed for the roots on the lime-loving veg have established themselves, then normal liquid feeding will start.

I learned that a minimum of two months should elapse before acid meets alkali, so that may well be OK for this season.

Next year means more planning methinks, but many thanks for the comments.

I suppose most things go in unexpected ways but I have to say that despite an energetic start on a new whole patch, and the second year on a half plot, last year was the best we've ever had, so something was done right...:0)