[Dominic]

Modern medicenes are made by figuring out what actualy works in "herbal" remedies, and using that.

The current human dewormer of choice is called Priprezet.
To make it, they figured out what it was in pepper corns that killed adult worms, and then promptly made that in the cheapest way available.
You could treat yourself "herbaly" by eating a handful of ground pepper corn twice a day for a couple of months, but I'm slightly concerned that would be fatal.
And of course, it involves eating large amounts of other "medicene" to get your dose of the small bit of the pepper you want.

Medical resistance is an evolved trait.  A worm species is just as likely to evolve resistance to a "medical" treatment as a "herbal" treatment.  In fact, the lower dosage in a herbal treatment is likely to speed up resistance, if resistance is possible, its often not.

And of course, there are no known side effects to an overdose of the drug family flubenvet comes from....

[feelingbroody]

LOL wolverine that made me smile!! and I agree they really do know best on this site, anyway off to knit my own yoghurt and hug a tree LOL 

[Robster]

Well thats me sorted then.  I ordered the flubenvet today.  Since these chickens are free ranging and living in the pen which they have duly destroyed and pooped all over.  Once they have been wormed won't they just pick up a re-infection from the ground they live in?  Assuming of course they have worms and the other life stages are in the ground.  Or am I ignorant of the life cycle here?

[Dominic]

Robster
It sounds like Flubenvet is effective against all stages of worms within the chicken.
They will still reinfect themselves if the soil has a high worm count.
If you dont currently strip graze, it might be an idea to move the pen to let the current one recover.
However a dose every 3-6 months is likely to counter any ill effects of worms.
You'll never wipe them out from your garden, and even if you do, wild birds will reintroduce them eventualy.

[stujem]

Hi Everyone, while I was buying Diatomaceous Earth to control any red mites etc, I read on the ebay listing that you can also add the DE to their feed and this will eradicate intestinal worms. What does anyone think about this? I hope it's does stop them having worms as I like others on here dont like chemicals. Will this be ok?

[Pepperpincushion]

Can I also ask a question? At what age should you start worming? My girls are 18 weeks so should I leave it for a while or give them a first dose soon?

[Lindeggs]

Thanks everyone for your feedback and info.  I have been pondering what worming methods to use right up until this morning, but I've now decided:  I'm off to get some Flubenvet (it does seem to be available in NZ).

I've had my pullets for 5 weeks and they have been getting regular garlic, apple cider vinegar, pumpkin seeds and diatomaceous earth in their feed. 

This morning one of them did a very runny poo, and on closer investigation I could see tiny white worms wiggling in it. 

So as much as I would love to rely on 'natural' remedies, they apparently don't work in my situation.  That makes the decision an easy one.

By the way, the chickens live in my suburban back yard, where (as far as I know) there has been no poultry kept before (although we do have plenty of wild birds).  I really thought that if anyone could get away with avoiding chemical wormers, I might be able to.  I'm just glad I have such a clear answer to my dilemma - seeing the worms with my own eyes has seen to that!

[hillfooter]

Hi Everyone, while I was buying Diatomaceous Earth to control any red mites etc, I read on the ebay listing that you can also add the DE to their feed and this will eradicate intestinal worms. What does anyone think about this? I hope it's does stop them having worms as I like others on here dont like chemicals. Will this be ok?

Use Flubenvet which is well proven to be safe whereas DE isn't see

http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/de.htm

DE is not a proven method of worming and neither is garlic which is the basic ingredient in VermX.

Just because something is deemed to be "natural" it doesn't mean they are safe.  Many organic agents are toxic and incidentally chemicals are natural too in that they like everything else in the universe are just star dust.
HF

[joyfull]

well done Lindeggs for keeping a close eye on your birds poohs so that now you know action is needed. You mentioned that you have lots of wild birds - so do I which is why I use Flubenvet every 3 months as wild birds can carry worms. Good luck with the worming 

[Aunt Sally]

Now a picture of that poo would have been good for our poo gallery Lindeggs 

[Lindeggs]

Disturbingly, I did consider taking a photo.  But in the end I couldn't quite bring myself to get that close...   

[hillfooter]

Are there any studies you can refer me to?  All the better if they were not conducted by pharmaceutical suppliers who are keen to sell their products! 

This is the Flubenvet efficacy report which is fairly comprehensive. 

http://www.crowshall.co.uk/forms/flubenvet-brochure.pdf

You won't find anything as comrehensive as this for so called natural or organic medications.  In fact if you checkout the VermX site you will find very little if anythying about test results or trials.  They focus on promoting it's "natural" goodness, purity and quality.  Basically it's active ingredient is garlic and it just hints at the assumed accepted qualities of herbal remedies handed down through the generations!  VermX were in fact forced to retract claims of it's universal efficacy as a wormer in 2009 by the Advertising Standards Agency due to lack of evidence for it's claims.

I'm affraid Lindeggs that good quality testing and trials are expensive to conduct so you won't get independant reports but the more ethical companies will publish data similar to that for flubenvet at industry conferences or often in learned publications (like for example the Lancet for human medicine) where they will be open to peer review. 

I have found that alternative medicine companies don't publish any data and if they do do any efficacy testing they won't let you have it even when asked directly.  If they do publish then it's in either in a trade or alternative medicine magazine not a scientific journal.  Often it will be based on expert or celebrity endorsements (for example a journalist vet who is either paid by the company, on the staff or otherwise has a financial interest so it's hardly impartial).  User anecdotal testimonials and poorly designed case studies are also commonly published in enthusiasts magazines.  None of these types of publications should be considered as evidence on a par with proper scientific reporting and peer review.

So I'm affraid Lindeggs if you think that all pharmacuetical companies are so inethical that they can't be trusted to publish truthful test results then you won't have much scientific data to review at all.  The tried and tested method of ensuring good honest data is openness, full and frank publication which is open to peer review and that can be replicated to confirm the findings.
HF

[Lindeggs]

I had hoped that after so many years of chicken keeping (small and large scale) that there might be some independent studies available.  i.e. not by anyone who stands to make a profit from the products but by (for example) the animal husbandry section of an agricultural university.  Basically I just wanted some literature to review so I could make my own (semi) informed decisions.

Yes, I am deeply suspicious of any studies that have been funded by someone with a vested interest.  That includes the companies that make 'natural' remedies and TV vets!  But, as you pointed out, they don't tend to publish scientific studies.  Research is more likely to be funded by pharmaceutical companies, which is why I specifically mentioned them.

Perhaps I have worked too long in the public relations industry.  It tends to make you a little jaded. 

[Lindeggs]

This is the Flubenvet efficacy report which is fairly comprehensive. 

http://www.crowshall.co.uk/forms/flubenvet-brochure.pdf

Thanks for that link.  It's an excellent start.  On page 8 of the pdf it refers to a study published by the Scottish Agricultural College, Auchincruive.  That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for - but unfortunately I can't access the study through the SAC website.  I will keep looking.