[jobson336]

help!
i currently have several allotment plots, these are on private farm land which the owner has converted into allotment plots. we have always been able to keep chickens on there. im in the 3rd field and well away from any houses. a few plots near the houses do have cockerels and the neighbours have complained and lodged this with the local council. 
They have come out, tested the noise and everyone with poultry has been issued a letter saying that it has been deemed a noise disturbance and could face a £5000 fine if they fail to remove cockerels. 
my argument is, surely they can not blanket fine everyone? my boys are 3 fields away where as the others are alongside the houses. Do they not have to remove the nearest first then retest the noise? What are my chances of appeal and has anyone been in this situation and won?
Does anyone know at what point (how loud) does it become a problem?
yes you maybe able to hear mine in the faint distance but surely not enough to deem it too noisey?! 
if you have a street of several noisy neighbours you dont evict the whole street, you identify the problem and deal with that.
any advice would be welcome, it would seem i have 10 days before they issue a notice and with it £5000 fine! 

[joyfull]

I think on most council allotments you can only have hens but as yours is private I don't know how you would stand. Not sure what the decible level is to deem something as a noise disturbance but there is also a time scale. Perhaps you could put your boys in a box overnight (cat carrier) and keep them in this until after 8 am so they wouldn't crow aand upset people. A cockerels crow carries rather a long distance especially where there is no other noise. We hear ours in summer at 4 am along with our neighbours and even cockerels over half a mile away.

[Pertelotte]

People also notice cockerels!

My neighbour has a very small car fitted with a very big exhaust. I seem to be the only person it wakes at 4:30 am. But, hey! No problem! I live in a town da da daaa.

When I got my girls this person had the gall to tell me he didn't want to be woken up by a cockerel crowing. Grrrr! This is even before my ladies had even arrived. When I countered that I wasn't keen on his exhaust he merely smiled and told me there was nothing to be done. Double Grrr!

OK Rant over.

It might be worth talking to a solicitor to clarify your situation, with luck there may be one wielding spade and trowel on your allotment. If not then phone one in the book - some solicitors have a scheme where the first half hour is free, but make sure they do this and know what you want to find out so you get value for your time (and possibly cash).

Good luck and tell us how it goes.

Pertelotte.

[D]

I've got a cockerel on our allotment (it was supposed to be a hen but we kept him anyway) and at the minute, touch wood fingures crossed etc, no ones complained yet. Although I'm dreading when light mornings come in to effect and he may start crowing early! We got written permission from the council before however, to keep chickens. I suppose one of the main problems (not always the case and not tarring everyone with the same brush) is city people wanting to move to the countryside but not realising what it means. My Nan lives in a village and used to keep chickens, but no longer does because both her neighbours complain about the dog, let alone any chickens!

[Aidy]

As Joyfull has said, we are only allowed hens but again it is council owned, I visited a site in at a museum called Yorkshire and they had cockerals on there, they're was a lot of argy bargy going on with the locals about the noise to a point where I heard one plot holder had been threatened with physical violence.

[compostqueen]

I wouldn't be intimidated as what you say seems reasonable to me. Let those with cockerels near the houses get rid first. The council would want to establish that the noise was constant, or at least regular, before doing anything. The complainants would have to keep diaries to log when the noise occurred.

I don't think they can issue an arbritary ban.  Have they actually been out to see you personally?  If not, don't worry

[Aidy]

Are we not missing a point here?
Surely if there is a noise problem, and the land is private, is not for the council to contact the land owner in the first instance rather than the plot holder?
Have you spoken to the land owner to see if there has been any correspondence between the council and them?

[ManicMum]

If you have a local Citizens Advice Bureau, they could access straightforward info for you & point you in the right direction - cheaper than solicitors, it's just guidance.

I'd agree with Aidy that the complainants go to the council who contacts the landowner..... how well do you get on with the landowner and could you contact them direct to see what they think?

[mrs.ploppy]

Been there and done that with the council and I am afraid you are in a loosing battle!  Any noise that a complaint is made about is deemed as a noise nusence. Once a complaint has been made it will go on and on. I had to rehome my cock after having 4 at one time for over a period of over 13 years or so with no complaint. Then one was lodged after new people moved into the road and they moaned. Most of my neigourghs did not even know I had chickens let alone a cock bird or 2. I was advised from the council to keep it in a cat box from 7pm to 7 am at least (to which advice I made a complaint to the RSPCA). This was to stop him crowing. Can you imagin that in a box for over 12 hours a day?  How crewl! I would cut your losses and rehome asap.  Sad that not everyone likes the noise but I live 40metres from a train track, have a school full of kids round the corner and have a whole road of people who never seem to work for a living making all sorts of noise all day long partying and music but if you got a cockerel you are a marked person it seems!

[themagicaltoad1]

I feel really sorry for you and agree with what's been said about getting more advice. We were lucky, when one of our hatched chicks turned out to be a cockerel and started crowing we arranged a new home for him, but the neighbours got together and asked us to keep him as they liked the sound. It makes them feel they're living in the country instead of a large town. I guess there's always the risk that someone new will move into the area one day and complain.

[Brambles]

Although I have no idea of the legalities of your problem.... surely by the fact that your allotments are on FARMLAND....  ?   Are chickens and COCKERELS not allowed on farms?

[jobson336]

i finally got my letter today, some of the other guys have been receiving theres over the last few days. im definitly going to seek advice, and i will be ringing the council as the letter invites me to do so to discuss the matter. What s more unreasonable is that the letter gives 10 days to 'sort the matter' have they ever tried rehoming cockerels!!
some of my boys were destined for the pot but ive got some lovely boys that i breed from and i really dont want to cull them just because of neighbours so will try my best to rehome rather than cull if it comes to it. i know there are a few links on here where they take them.
i will certainly have a word with the landowner, he lives on the farm and isnt bothered by the cockerels at all. I know he is on our side, the local residents were not happy about the land being used for allotments as up until last year they were just fields, they wanted to keep trespassing on his land and letting their dogs dodo freely all over the place!!
Guess this is there way of revenge on the plot holders! 
i will check with the land owner to see if they have written to him directly, he didnt mention it this morning. I dont like giving up without a battle but really cant afford a £5000 fine landing on my doorstep!
i will see if i can speak to someone over the weekend or early next week. 

[compostqueen]

There's a long route that the council has to go before they can do anything about your birds. I wouldn't be getting rid of any til I was forced to. 

[Pertelotte]

Now you've got your letter reply ASAP to the council indicating you'd like to meet them/ contest the complaint etc. As long as you make some reply in writing then you're covering yourself so they can't turn round later and say you ignored them. This is what is covered by the ten days. Calling is a good idea as long as you follow it up i writing, preferably referring to your conversation.

£5,000 is a lot of money to have to shell out and with the economic squeeze on the council might be tempted to comedown harshly. They shouldn't see things that way, but fines raise cash as much as providing penalties. I would recommend an e-mail as it is automatically saved and letters can easily get lost in the post - or even at the council. Not out of malice; as jobs get cut the bureaucracy gets stupid. Think about creating a separate folder.

While you're getting advice it might be worth asking the council for how they make their decisions. They should provide you with this information. Your local councillor should be able to help as well because the local council is a public servant operating fairly and transparently, and not a feudal overlord. Ho hum. Try invoking reasonableness - if you're on the edge a carpet ban may not be reasonable and can be viewed as ultra vires. Councils often overstep their powers so it's a possibility. If you get desperate try St Hugh FW of Riverside. he wants us to keep hens: no cocks, no hens and no genetic diversity ...

I wish you luck in your fight, and hope you do fight. In this modern world people appear to accept any amount of mechanical noise spewing out fumes and poisons, but the clear throated and melodious peal of a happy bird ... 

Pertelotte.

[joyfull]

I would print off a copy of your email and send this as well so they have a signed hard copy - but send it special delivery so you can get a copy of the signature of whoever takes the post in. Special delivery is quicker than recorded so would stand a better chance of getting there on time. Keep a record of all letters, times and names of people who you speak to on the phone.