[Silkysmooth]

Is this just protective healthwise or can it help increase egg production in healthy non diseased chooks?

Would you recommend using both? and how often do you use them?

Many Thanks

Andy

[hillfooter]

Many keeper use these but as far as I'm aware there's little real evidence they are beneficial even though many people believe so.  Interesting most people who use them cite different reasons and benefits for their use.  The usual get out clause for alternative medicine is to claim it to be a preventative or repellant, if parasites are involved.  They never claim to be "a cure for".  The usual expression is "helps with" or "beneficial in the treatment of", and if you see these weasel words you can be pretty sure they will be useless other than as a crutch.

ACV's widespread use probably dates from a seminal book on alternative medicine "Folk Medicine: A Vermont Doctor’s Guide to Good Health", written by D.C. Jarvis, M.D., which was published in 1958.  It became a cult best seller.   ACV has been claimed to offer all sorts of benefits (as well as some problems).  It has been claimed as a treatment for diabetes, weight loss, cholesterol reduction, and dandruff to name a few of the more popular ones.  Virtually all the benefits claimed are based on unsubstanciated theory, for example the supposed benefits of body acid balance, some of which is known to be false (including those in Jarvis' book.).  

Some people believe ACV contains benefitial tannins which help digestion.  Though in fact any red skinned fruit such as apple will contain more tannin.  What I will say about ACV is that chickens seem to like it and anything which causes them to drink plenty of water can't be too bad.  I sometimes use it for about a week continuously if I think they need more hydration or after a moult.  The type you need is the non-refined type sold by horse feed stuff stores not the pasteurised and filtered stuff you buy at Sainsburys.

Garlic is generally believed to be a powerful medicine by herbalists.  It is a broad spectrum antibiotic which it is claimed can be rubbed on a wound to prevent infection.  I've no idea if digesting it has the same beneficial effects and you shouldn't assume so without clinical proof.  Garlic can also cause blistering and an allergic reaction so I don't advise using it on wounds.

Substances which are effective on bacteria on a lab slide maybe completely useless when taken internally.  For instance Fairy Liquid will kill cancer cells in a test tube but it's no use as a cure for cancer so you certainly shouldn't drink it.  Again garlic is an appetiser and it might make food or other medication more palatable.  I don't use garlic though I can't see it is likely do much harm.

Garlic is also claimed to reduce cholesterol, help with weight loss (sound familiar?) and is an antioxidant, though the elimination of free radicals in the body is losing credibility as being beneficial for cancer and aging.  On the down side raw garlic's high sulphur level (which gives it it's antibiotic properties) is an ideal environment for botulism which causes a dangerous digestion toxin.

Although I don't underestimate the placebo effect of using alternative medicines generally I don't use supplements unless they are part of a medical treatment or are given for some very specific reason.  If you use any supplement I suggest you do so with a specific reason in mind and some expected outcome.  Just using them speculatively on a regular basis doesn't teach you anything about their effectiveness or value when you really might need them.  The whole subject of nutrition and supplements is riddled with quackery and inflated claims for health giving panaceas so don't be taken in.
HF

[Snoop]

Eeh, hillfooter, thank you for that post and for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[joyfull]

At the moment I have 2 x 15 litre drinkers (will shortly be changing these for 4 x 12 litre drinkers when Grannie Annie gets them in for me) and I put crushed garlic cloves in one and ACV in the other (only use the ACV for a few weeks at a time). As HF said ACV does help promote drinking and in this hot weather it is no bad thing. It is also supposed to help change the pH balance in the gut thus stopping harmful bacteria from growing.
Garlic is supposed to be good for us humans and hopefully even though chickens are a different species is good for them - I know mine love it 

[compostqueen]

I like using vinegar for me and the hens.  I buy the ACV for the hens from the horsey place but get mine from Ostlers. It's lovely diluted in spring water and orange, or apple juice funnily enough  (it's the same principal, with all the "mother" floating about in it. A good shake makes it look less daunting. 

People were drinking vinegar in Roman times and using it on their food.  Where would we be without it on our chips 

[hillfooter]

It is also supposed to help change the pH balance in the gut thus stopping harmful bacteria from growing.

I think these types of suppositions are the sort of currency alternative medicine trades in.  A chickens digestive system is naturally acidic and doesn't require the "help" of the very small amount of additional acidity provided by diluted ACV.  In fact why shouldn't we think that taking extra acid unbalances the natural level of acid and kills the helpful bacteria?   So I could argue that it actual does harm.  Well actually I expect neither is true since our bodies and chx too are very good at regulating the digestive enzyms to that required to keep us healthy so will compensate for excess dietary acid or alcalines.   

Additionally our own and all animals digestive systems support a whole zoo of bacteria (running into the thousands of species) some of which is very benefitial and some of which can be harmful.  The idea that the additional acidity in ACV will just target harmful bacteria is just wishful thinking.

Another interesting theory which may have some foundation, but I'm not convinced, is the idea that feeding a probiotic yogurt after a course of antibiotics helps repopulate the gut with helpful bacteria.  Indeed some probiotic yogurt contains around 8 species of helpful bacteria, not many when you consider how many naturally occur in the gut.  The theory on which the use of probiotics is based is called "competitive exclusion".  Basically it is assumed that antibiotics clean out the natural occuring bacteria (actually they are a little more selective) and by feeding a probiotic you give the more helpful ones a head start in repopulating.  The idea is that the good bacteria will "compete" with the harmful ones and initially displace them thus aiding recovery.  I'd be interested to know if this theory has any real clinically proven (by trials not just anocodal testimonial) benefits or if in fact it's just another highly marketable sales inspired theory.
HF

[joyfull]

after worming and antibiotics I always give mine avipro plus which is a probiotic powder specifically for birds (it contains no lactose).

[stan deakin]

about two years ago 8 of my belgians where huddled up and not eating or drinking,i thought that was it i have lost then [12 weeks old by the way] i had no medication in so i put some cider vinigar in the water , and dipped there beaks in it , later on they where drinking a bit of it , the next day they were running about as though nothing was wrong with them, i was so pleased i am never without it , i just put a cap full in the water which is about 1ltr , and have never had any illnesses as yet touch wood

stan