[SidReal]

some fruit self-pollinate, what would this mean in terms of the seed that is produced within that fruit? Healthy, sterile?

also, if you grew one variety of apple eg e.russel, could that be pollinated with another e.russel or would these essentially be clones of each other, thus failing to work?

many thanks for ure wisdom

[mumofstig]

With things like tomatoes and french beans they are self fertile and the seed they produce is fertile, and in a non f1 variety will be tre to type
I am pretty sure that with apples and pears they have to cross pollinate with another variety to get fruit, but the seeds in the fruit usually revert to wild or common type. So although seed is fertile it's not usually worth growing. Does this ramble make any sense

[Jay Dubya]

Hi, whats important is they need to flower at the same time, important when choosing varieties.

[The Norfolk Turkey]

I think MoS has got it right here - F1s usually revert to wild types, which is why theres no point collecting seed if youve grown an F1. Apples and pears do need to cross pollinate, but some varieities are avilable that self pollinate. Apple growers struggle with this which is why grafted stock is used quite so heavily - takes out the genetic lottery that is sexual reproduction!
Finally (and without trying to be too science geeky!  :blink: ) just because a plant has been healthy and produced fruit and seed, doesnt mean that is hasnt been carrying a fauly gene (just like human can carry the gene for colour-blindness, but no be colour blind), this gene may lay dormant for generations before being expressed by a plant years down the line.

Blimey - thats all a bit high science for this time of night! Hope that helps!

[SidReal]

Thanks, I'm pretty new to this side of things, so I'll get looking into what an F1 actually is...

sleep tight

[Dominic]

An F1 is a first generation hybrid of two others, which themselves, could be hybrids.

Example, (not real)
If you breed a Golden Apple, which grows big apples and a Delicious Apple, which grows tasty apples, you get a golden delicious seed, which will grow big and tasty apples
However, if you breed two golden delicious, you will get some golden seeds, and some delicious seeds, not golden delicious seeds.

Although in regards to the original post, I'm actualy curious.
My Red currant is self fertile, ie, the male bit pollinates the female bit, so what happens if I plant them?

[SidReal]

oh the joy of scientific experimentation


oh, the great time-saver to such queries that is internet forums


apparently in the animal kingdom, a lack of such genetic diversity may predispose the next generation to health problems... so I'm wondering if such a 'clone seed' may produce plants prone to disease and attack... then again, animals breathe in oxygen... maybe a clone seed would produce a super offspring

T

[Nobbie]

I saw a tv programme recently about Darwin and they did an experiment where they grew some plants and some cross polinated and others were self pollinated. The cross polinated offspring were on the whole much larger and more healthy than the self pollinated.

[hamstergbert]

...If you breed a Golden Apple, which grows big apples and a Delicious Apple, which grows tasty apples, you get a golden delicious seed, which will grow big and tasty apples...

Not often you could imagine 'golden delicious' and 'tasty' in the same sentence!

[The Norfolk Turkey]

Right, confession to make Im actually a biology teacher, so if this goes a bit further than you were hoping, rest assured that in practical terms when it comes to actually growing  plants I know next to nothing!!!

A clone is what its says it is - an exact copy genetically, the instructions inside are the same, so a cloned seed would be no better or worse than the original plant.

The problem is not all the instructions are used, some are 'spares' that can be passed on during pollination - so a great plant may produce pollen (half the instructions - like sperm or eggs) thats pretty duff . Even in Dominics example breeding a golden and a delicious apple may not produce seeds in a 50-50split of delicious-ness and golden-ness, you might just as likely get 25% delicious, 25% golden and 50% naff.

Cross pollination (sexual reproduction) as one Mr Darwin correctly pointed out, creates diversity and therefore an increased chance of a new variety (great tasting/great looking/resistant to disease etc) as these instructions all get mixed with one another, good for survival, not so good for the gardener intent on recreating last years bountiful harvest!

Finally (bear with me!) self pollination, cloning (and interbreeding) increases the risk of duff instructions being passed on and creating problems within the population making them vulnerable to disease, attack etc as the duff instructions are passed round and round within a very small number of individuals - pedigree animals is a great example of this.

All that said Im going to find any seeds we make this year and give them a good go!!

Cheers.

[mumofstig]

How then do self saved seed from non hybrids,(you know the sort in seed banks and from Real Seeds) always come true to type, as they're self fertilised, not cloned?

[The Norfolk Turkey]

Ahah - now youve got me you see - now Im out of biology safe waters and into real plant knowledge!! No idea!! If I had to guess it comes back to the 'spare' genes I mentioned - in some cases you can guarantee which ones will get used and which ones will be spares (these are known as dominant and recessive genes) a plant or animal will always use a dominant gene, and only use a recessive gene if it has no other choice.

So to speculate an answer it might be that self saved seeds come from plants that only have dominant genes (they have no recessive genes = no risk of a duff one slipping through the net!).

Good on genes you see - what I know about self saved seeds - back of a postage stamp.....twice..... 

[mumofstig]

Good on genes you see - what I know about self saved seeds - back of a postage stamp.....twice..... 

 

[The Norfolk Turkey]

speaking of pollination, weve got some F1 peppers, will they do it themselves (no pun intended) or shall I get my paintbrush out?

[mumofstig]

Give them a tap/shake the same as for tomatoes and they should release their own pollen, if the bees haven't already done it