[oldbean]

compostqueen, when you have only X amount of growing space and weeds take up a good portion of this valuable space, getting rid of the majority is a necessity rather than a fixation. Weeds have the rest of the world to grow in.
I echo the thoughts of Richy and Sadgit....necessity at times, not choice. My back isn't made of iron nor my time unlimited.

As compostqueen says, you can do as you like on your own plot, but many successful permaculture followers would see using chemicals to get rid of weeds as a choice, not a necessity. Also there are tools that are efficient and not back-breakers. Mulching with weed suppressing fabric gets rid of most weeds and allows worms to your digging.

It's a question of which choice, mine is work with nature, not fight it. I tried that, I always lost.

[celjaci]

Have a look at this - sorry don't know how to do links
http://www.guarding-our-earth.com/aggrand/roundup.htm

Roundup use is not as straightforward as the manufacturers would have us believe.
It is already banned in some countries

[mumofstig]

Weeds are normal and a sign your plot is fertile.  I don't get this weeds are evil fixation.  Growing your own is an opportunity to grow veg healthily, you can buy chemical drenched ones from the shops
Still, you do as you like on your own plot

Thing is CQ I don't use the chemicals on the veg  :lol:so they're not 'chemical drenched '  its just that without using them i would have very little time to actually grow the veg as i would be spending it all fighting ground elder and mares tail Lots of people use it just the once to clear the plot and use no chemicals after that
So, as you say, we do the best we can to grow healthy veg, in our own conditions

[David.]

I think it is reasonable for you to clear the weeds with Round Up and still call yourself Organic. Its how you treat your soil and crops after that, that matters.

I say if you need it to get you going then use it.

I think you'll find you have to a wait around couple of years after using it before you can start calling yourself 'organic'.

[AndyRVTR]

I think it is reasonable for you to clear the weeds with Round Up and still call yourself Organic. Its how you treat your soil and crops after that, that matters.

I say if you need it to get you going then use it.

I think you'll find you have to a wait around couple of years after using it before you can start calling yourself 'organic'.

Roundup (IMO) has nothing to do with being Organic.........Organic food is produced by farmers who avoid the use of bio-persistent nonselective chemical pesticides, fungicides and fertilizers. Farmers emphasize the use of renewable (or sustainable) resources and the conservation of soil and water to enhance environmental quality for future generations.
As far as I'm aware, being organic means not using any of the above ON the plant itself?
 

[Kate and her Ducks]

Afraid to be organic as I understand it you have to treat the soil organically not just the plant, as in the Soil Association. Using roundup would not be organic.

[blackbob]

ive just switched to GALLUP HI-ACTIV very pleased with the results.i use it mainly for keeping surrounding areas tidy.
although i would have no problems using it to clear growing areas.

[Yorkie]

Never heard of that one, BB, sounds interesting

What's its active ingredient?

[peterjf]

deffinately B  for me , confused maybe , but itll be ok

[blackbob]

Never heard of that one, BB, sounds interesting

What's its active ingredient?

it's glyphosate (same as roundup) but is reckoned to be more forgiving near ponds and water courses.

[oldbean]

For those who have not read celjaci's link, or for those who think it's a safe necessity, here are a couple of extracts from the link.

1. Glyphosate can be persistent. In tests conducted by Monsanto, manufacturer of glyphosate-containing herbicides, up to 140 days were required for half of the applied glyphosate to break down or disappear from agricultural soils. At harvest, residues of glyphosate were found in lettuce, carrots, and barley planted one year after glyphosate treatment.

5. Roundup contains toxic trade secret ingredients. These include polyethoxylated tallowamines, causing nausea and diarrhea, and isopropylamine, causing chemical pneumonia, laryngitis, headache, and bums.

6. Roundup kills beneficial insects. Tests conducted by The International Organization for Biological Control showed that Roundup caused mortality of live beneficial species: a Thrichgramma, a predatory mite, a lacewing, a ladybug, and a predatory beetle.

7. Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand's most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as 1/20 of standard application rates, reduced its growth and slowed its development.

8. Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi. Canadian studies have shown that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth or colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.

9. Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation. Amounts as small as 2 parts per million have had significant effects, and effects have been measured up to 120 days after treatment. Nitrogen- fixing bacteria shown to be impacted by glyphosate include a species found on soybeans and several species found on clover.

[blackbob]

For those who have not read celjaci's link, or for those who think it's a safe necessity, here are a couple of extracts from the link.

1. Glyphosate can be persistent. In tests conducted by Monsanto, manufacturer of glyphosate-containing herbicides, up to 140 days were required for half of the applied glyphosate to break down or disappear from agricultural soils. At harvest, residues of glyphosate were found in lettuce, carrots, and barley planted one year after glyphosate treatment.

5. Roundup contains toxic trade secret ingredients. These include polyethoxylated tallowamines, causing nausea and diarrhea, and isopropylamine, causing chemical pneumonia, laryngitis, headache, and bums.

6. Roundup kills beneficial insects. Tests conducted by The International Organization for Biological Control showed that Roundup caused mortality of live beneficial species: a Thrichgramma, a predatory mite, a lacewing, a ladybug, and a predatory beetle.

7. Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand's most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as 1/20 of standard application rates, reduced its growth and slowed its development.

8. Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi. Canadian studies have shown that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth or colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.

9. Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation. Amounts as small as 2 parts per million have had significant effects, and effects have been measured up to 120 days after treatment. Nitrogen- fixing bacteria shown to be impacted by glyphosate include a species found on soybeans and several species found on clover.

7. Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand's most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as 1/20 of standard application rates, reduced its growth and slowed its development.

shame it doesn't work on their dreaded flatworm lol.

[galen]

Oldbean / celjaci, this is not a dig at you or your views ( ) , just a general rant… 

Firstly, I used roundup initially to get rid of some of  my weeds (from ¼ of my plot), but I did hand dig / sort the rest.

Although I can not  disagree with anything said in what you have quoted, these are studies from the  80s / 90s and are here being quoted in an article from 2000. These results may have been seen in California, New Zealand and Canada back then, may be things have changed in the past 9 years ?

This can be a problem with much information from the internet, it can be collated to suite the authors need. I’m not saying roundup is right or wrong, just be careful what you read. 

[oldbean]

I wondered how quickly someone would bring this up.

However there are many replies in this thread that broadly approve the use of glyphosate.

Perhaps readers should be careful what they read, especially when it indicates tacit support for what is by any other name, a toxic substance.

[mumofstig]

Each to their own, say i. No-one's trying to tell anyone else what to do..only what we personally choose to do.
As we say on here...Werks fer me