[dereklane]

"Stopped using Tesco because they sell Hal-al meat."

That's quite interesting - I grew up on a cattle farm, so am a little familiar with the western-style practises in abbatoirs. Hal-al is much more humane, in my opinion. The bolt-to-the-head approach often misses, or doesn't work properly. The animals are severely spooked beforehand, manic almost, treated like, well, cattle in the yards, which raises their adrenalin to peak (despite many farmers endeavouring to keep their animals quiet and calm their whole lives before that...)

Hal-al on the other hand, is done with a very sharp knife, one slice, in a calm environment. It apparently causes a fairly instant brain haemorrage, and when you compare that to the average abbatoir, well, no screaming cows... Its not just a religious requirement, it also provides a more tender meat (there being little build up of uric acid [?] in it due to low adrenalin prior to slaughter). That fact alone should prove that halal does a better job, since andrenalin build up is in animals synonymous with fear/pain.

I would have thought if you were interested in animal welfare you'd be in favour of halal.

(Either way, remembering all this makes me think I should go vege completely )

cheers,

Derek

[Big Jen]

Hi
I think you are wrong- The animals heart is still beating to pump the blood out, so how can we say they cannot feel anything? I would prefer to take my chances with a bolt through the brain and instant death.
Even chickens are stunned before they have their throats cut.
Definately something in going veggy!
BJ

[dereklane]

"I think you are wrong- The animals heart is still beating to pump the blood out, so how can we say they cannot feel anything? I would prefer to take my chances with a bolt through the brain and instant death. "

Hi Big Jen,

We can't say they don't feel anything, and we would be foolish to suggest it. What we should try to ascertain is which method is *less* painful and also (as important, I believe) less *traumatic*.

I have been to abbatoirs and seen (and heard about) the effects of the *stun* gun used on cattle. This gun renders (at best) them unconscious, it doesn't, so far as I know, kill them outright. They still need to bleed the animal, which won't work as well if its dead first.

But as I suggested earlier, a cow put through an abbatoir is subjected to extreme and harrowing conditions prior to its death. It faces abject fear (rolling eyes testify to this, as do the screams), the very strong smell of blood, which raises its adrenalin levels significantly (it is, after all, a herbivore, so blood signifies death and therefore, we can reasonably extrapolate, fear), and the loud clashes, bangs and bright lights. The animal is scared half to death before it even reaches the bloke with the bolt gun.

Having worked on cattle (injections and the like, as well as other such things like castration) I can testify exactly how difficult it is to pin a cow with a needle in the right spot. Depending on how wild the animal is (in Oz there were quite a few places where the cattle had never seen a human till they got in the race), its *very* difficult. Same with a bolt gun in an abbatoir. You would, I would guess, get perhap 60% on the mark (if you were skilled and operating for maximum compassion - perhaps unlikely).

Others would need a second attempt, or not properly knock the animal out without the abbatoir-worker's knowledge. And once the animal is on a hook and bleeding, how are you going to know if its conscious? (Loss of blood makes anyone lethargic)

The reality of the abbatoir is horrific. Anyone who tells you it's humane has obviously either not seen one, or doesn't know the meaning of the word.

As for halal, properly done, and with a very sharp knife, the pain and fear is minimized. Again, with experience of castration vs clamps for vas deferens - Burdizzos (another option which draws no blood) I would confidently say a bull calf suffers less from castration, because the blade is sharp (they don't moan, for a start). Think back to when (if) you lost a large amount of blood from a cut, or ask someone if you haven't. You get dizzy, disoriented, and don't really notice the pain, even though it is, somewhere, there. The pain comes later.

Though still a subjective position (science can't measure pain), I would say that gentle blood loss (astoundingly fast with the heart behind it) would be preferable to the chaotic, noisy, bright and blooming environment of a western-style abbatoir for an animal which may not presage what is about to happen to it.

I sincerely would like to see the end of such factory style abbatoirs. They are a scourge in terms of animal welfare, and it doesn't help that we still continue to think of them as comparatively humane. They are not.

Sorry for going on about this, I realise I may have (slightly) hijacked this thread...

cheers,

Derek

[Ruby Red]

Agree with Bigjen on this. I work at a supermarket that used to sell halal meat. The only people who bought it were the ones who hadnt a clue that it was any different to other meat. I used to tell them and some decided to put it back .The people for whom it was available for used to buy it from their own butchers.I cant help but think that if our farmers started using that methodfor slaughter they would be prosecuted for cruelty and causing unecessary suffering.  Also ASDA in birmingham used to sell horse meat. Before all of you come on here saying yes its really nice you wouldnt know the difference etc. Horses in this country are looked on as loyal companions/pets and we have used their like for hundreds of years. This country was shaped by the horse and its loyalty should be rewarded with more than a trip to the abbatoir.You may as well ask me to eat a dog.

[Ruby Red]

Stealing...
not really, the machine was out of order, so people decided to dump there "to be recycled material, right next to the machine.
I only picked the bottles I could carry.
I could be called a thief, I would rather be called an opportunist.
someone junk might be someone else treasure.

talking about tesco being green.... they are obviously not green, but telling people they are doing their bit to be greener, might be enough for some.
Aspargus =>peru
strawberries=>spain
fresh peas => israel
runner beans=> colombia.
who was talking about foodmiles.

     Sorry but calling yourself an opportunist is dressing it up a bit you were still stealing. The person who broke into my car to pinch stuff was called an opportunist. The things werent yours to take. It would be a good idea for there to be a 10p put on all plastic bottles to be refunded on return like they used to with glass bottles.

[Jeanieblue]

Well I'm pleased lefrog collected up those bottles - because some yob would soon have a smashing time with them, just for something to do!  And if his wombling brings a few Tesco points as well, good for him!

[lefrog]

Ruby red:Sorry but calling yourself an opportunist is dressing it up a bit you were still stealing. The person who broke into my car to pinch stuff was called an opportunist. The things werent yours to take. It would be a good idea for there to be a 10p put on all plastic bottles to be refunded on return like they used to with glass bottles.

there s a thin line between "breaking into a car" and picking few bottles left next to a bottle bank. ? no... really?

the idea of deposit works well in some country not in others. It works perfectely well in germany, sweden, norway, denmark ,holland  bt not any longer in uk.

[chrissie B]

personally i would take new zealand over welsh and an old boot over the Greek as its scrawny and fatty , goat is much better .i thought the New Zealand lamb was expensive here but looking at those prices its not only about at its most expensive just over 5 euros mainland price , frozen of course .
Chrissie b

[DaveScotA]

Stopped using Tesco because they sell Hal-al meat. I am not a vegy but cant condone any part in this barbaric practise. They completely ignored my complaints re this as well
BJ

 Glad you stopped using T**** but have you seen how meat is produced?
 I am a veggie and factory farming is barbaric.
  See meat . org

[peggyprice]

I give our local butcher the business. May cost a little more, but it's all local with no air or sea and few road miles involved.

There was a piece in our local paper this week about a campaign being launched to educate local restaurants/chefs.  Too many of them currently think that buying their produce from local shops is the same thing as buying local produce - it doesn't seem to have occurred to them that the local butcher is too often selling meat imported from Argentina for example.  They may as well go to the 'local' supermarket  :?

It doesn't take much effort to find out where your meat is really coming from, but it's worth asking.  I buy all mine from the Real Meat company, it costs an absolute fortune but I buy less and I buy cheaper cuts safe in the knowledge of what has and has not been done to the animals before they've been slaughtered (and afterwards).  And we eat every single mouthful because it tastes completely different to the plastic meat you get in most supermarkets (and restaurants) - so no waste either.

Meanwhile, I now try to avoid Tesco on the basis that they are not prepared to commit to selling and using only freerange eggs whereas Sainsburys & Morrisons (my two other options) both have made that commitment - check out http://www.bhwt.org.uk/caring-consumer.php# for more info...

[richyrich7]

Having a chat with your local butcher is really the best idea, ours has free range hens as a matter of course, beef and lamb from England and Wales.
And to be honest mine's cheaper for chicken then tesco's free range. And price's everything else on a par, or you just buy a little less meat.

[woodburner]

I lived in a muslim country for several years and was frequently within yards of a sheep being killed, and except that I had seen the sheep just before or after or both, I wouldn't have known. Done properly it is an astonishingly calm affair. No struggle, no panicing, no bleating, before, during or after it's throat is slit.
One of the requirements is that the knife be very sharp, and as anyone who has ever cut themselves with a brand new stanley knife can confirm,  :oops: a sharp blade causes very little pain. Apparenly blood loss doesn't cause pain either, so all in all one of the better ways to go.  :!:  

I think at the end of the day, how much the animal does or doesn't suffer at the end of it's life depends more on the actual abbattoire conditions, or whatever location, than the method of slaughter.

[dereklane]

"Done properly it is an astonishingly calm affair. No struggle, no panicing, no bleating, before, during or after it's throat is slit."

cheers Woodburner, that was the point I was trying to make, and, as you say, the evidence is there from the stanley knife example if we choose to explore it. Also, some abbatoirs are obviously worse than others, but you can't get away from the barbarity that extends from mass, fast slaughter. Ethics, integrity and humanity are all compromised at the expense of economic gain, no matter the method. A virtue of the halal style is that, within limits, it's less possible to slaughter quicker (and therefore there must be more attention to the detail), because the slaughterer must still maintain physical control of the animal.

cheers,

Derek

[Big Jen]

quote "the slaughterer must still maintain physical control of the animal".


Derek- back to this subject again- getting a bit boring now.
Just how is it possible to maintain physical control of a large animal without causing distress?.
It is not possible.
Lets face it - whatever way an animal is killed is distressing for the animal and always will be.
BJ

[dereklane]

Perhaps woodburner could present more of his/her experiences here, but

Big Jen,

When I said 'within limits', those limits are specific to animals smaller than grown cattle (for cattle there is still, I believe, the requirement to filter them through one at a time, to minimise stress and panic). Examples of smaller animals able to be held by the slaughterer include sheep, goats, calves, chickens. In halal slaughterhouses, they restrain grown cattle upright in 'crushes' similiar to, but not as savage as those used on farms around the world.

You would not be able to easily restrain any of these smaller animals (holding their heads back) if attention was not paid to the calm, quiet 'control' of the animal prior to slaughter. Halal animals are, i believe, fed (rather than starved) prior to slaughter, which calms them, they are not faced with the previous victims prior to their own slaughter (its one at a time for the larger animals), and the slaughter takes place swiftly and quietly. All these things ensure that the animals remain 'unspooked' right up to their own death, very much unlike those in commercial stun-driven abbatoirs.

If you're bored, you could always consider not responding, but of course, I would rather see people re-evaluating their prejudices with reason and logic, rather than choosing a side and sticking to it for no other reason than that it *seems* right.

As for your last point, yes, I more or less agree. My argument is that, from what I have seen along with the application of logic and reason, halal killing seems *less* not *more* distressing than our factory-driven approach. That doesn't mean that there is no distress for the animal.

What initially surprised me that so many people seem so reactionary against halal, and appear to be using animal welfare as the basis of this belief with no tangible basis of evidence.

cheers,

Derek