When restrictions are lifted .....

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mrs bouquet

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When restrictions are lifted .....
« on: April 07, 2020, 20:22 »
The thought makes my stomach churn.    Will the entire country jump into their cars and hit the road.  Will the shops be packed (Mind you, there are hardly any left in Worthing).   Will children throw tantrums at going back to school.   Will doggies be let off leads and runaway in case they're restricted again.  etc etc -  Oh, my blood pressure seems to be rising.   OR maybe the majority will still be nervous and wait for others to try it first to see what happens.   :ohmy:  Mrs Bouquet
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Tenhens

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 21:00 »
Remember those who were taken before their time.
we also rescue rabbits and guinea pigs, grow own veg

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Growster...

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 21:15 »
Never fear, Mrs B.

Brits always 'Carry on regardless' - they even made a film about it...;0)

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Wellington

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2020, 00:13 »
It isn’t going to be quite like that. Firstly, the current restrictions  are likely to be in place for some time to come, and they may well get worse before they are lifted. This will require a great deal more policing, so that should put most of the idiots back in their boxes.

Secondly (and I’m sorry to be Mrs Gloom and Doom about this) some sort of modified lifestyle is going to be necessary for a very long time. We are long, long past the point where this virus can be contained. We have not done enough testing, tracing or containing. It’s here, it’s rife and we have to live with it until one of two things happen. Either most people have had it (which will dramatically slow spread, and it will become like flu - a pain, kills hundreds of thousands of people every year, puts enormous seasonal pressure on the health services and worries precisely nobody) aka ‘herd immunity’. The trouble with this is that no one knows what percentage of the population needs to have had it to reach herd immunity (it varies with different diseases) or when we might reach that (because we have done naff all testing anyway). It’s a plausible theory, but it will crush our health service and hundreds of thousands of people will die, many of something completely unrelated which would otherwise have been totally treatable if the service wasn’t crippled). The second is when we get an effective vaccine programme rolled out, in around 18 months time. If we are very, very lucky the wretched virus will not have mutated in that time and a vaccine programme will be the end of it and we can all go back to destroying the planet at will. If we are not, we could be living with outbreaks of CV for all eternity, as we do with flu. We will simply have to manage outbreaks, be less idiotic with travel, gatherings and hygiene and bolster our health and funeral services.

The most likely scenario is a series of cycles of shelter-in-place (of varying severities according how much ‘downward pressure’ we need on the curve at the time, and how well we monitor infection rates. Hint we are not currently monitoring infection rates in any meaningful way) and more freedoms, and then shelter in place again as cases rise. This could be managed very effectively on a regional basis, as it hardly matters in London if the Glasgow ICU beds are full, and vice versa. This would allow neighbouring services to help each other out and relieve pressure on services regionally giving vital breathing spaces for staff. It would need be heavily policed, though. Even if restrictions are lifted, they will be much more gradual. We may even see a scenario where individuals who are confirmed to have had it, and thus are immune, are allowed free movement, and those who have not, are not. I don’t say that it’s nice, but it’s logical. You can’t spread nearly so effectively it if you can’t catch it.

It’s also theoretically possible that we may develop some effective form of treatment. I personally doubt this very much. We have virtually nothing that is effective against acute viruses in any meaningful way, and certainly nothing that is effective on a such a swift killer. It takes something like seven years to get a new drug though trials, so I won’t be pinning my hopes on one. Unless it mutates.

My money’s on a vaccine. A new flu vaccine (which is just an update of a tried and tested vaccine with a new strain) takes six months. We know a lot about flu, it’s just nobody cares very much. A completely new vaccine takes 1 - 3 years. Obviously, scientists around the world are pulling out all the stops to get one out there, but it must be adequately tested. There is no point having a vaccine that’s ineffective, or that is unsafe. Expect disruption of varying levels for 18 months and hope to your deity of choice that it doesn’t mutate (which is a very, very good reason to keep infection levels right down and against the herd immunity strategy that Boris thought was a good idea. I’m fairly sure he’s now changed his mind, but there you are) The less virus out there, the less chance of mutation. The world is going to become a very, very different place if it mutates. There are novels less dramatic. It may also change other diseases. There has been a huge rise in the ‘antivaxx’ movement which has actually prevented the eradication of measles (we were very close) and has put other horrible diseases back in the game. It may be that the state has to intervene to protect society at large from these individuals (It was only a matter of time, but this will hasten things) and that may mean it is possible for vaccinations to become compulsory. I am not a fan of enforced medical treatment, but in the case of vaccinations against horrible diseases, well, there is no case (I’m not talking vulnerable individuals who cannot be vaccinations but parents who CHOOSE not to have their children vaccinated because of poor scientific understanding, even poorer research skills, still poorer critical appraisal skills and lousy media reporting). We really are going to have to accept that individual freedoms are going to be limited, possibly in a quite unfair way and for the foreseeable future, to protect society as a whole. They better keep the money  going round, or there’ll be a revolt as well.

I’ll be delighted to be wrong. I really will. But I simply can’t see any other way out of it.

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snowdrops

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 07:16 »
Wellington, that’s a very well written appraisal of the current situation,can I ask what you do for a living as it sounds like you know a lot more than most of us?
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WeavingGryphon

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2020, 08:29 »
Kids will probably stampede to the school for company and activity.
In my pairs case, to escape my dream of putting them to work in the allotment so they can't complain they are bored.

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John

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2020, 10:16 »
Wellington - most of what you say is potentially or actually right but then you stick some political lie in there about herd immunity being a Boris idea. Which throws everything else you say into doubt. It was mentioned by the chief scientific officer and since twisted to political ends. Lets leave the politics in the dung heap where they belong.

For those interested in facts - herd immunity develops when enough people have had the illness and thereby become immune to prevent the virus from finding enough hosts to remain self-sustaining. It's a natural thing that will happen and is desirable if you can't stop the disease any other way. There was no suggestion of it being something the government wanted to actively cause to happen.

Whilst there is no cure for the virus on the horizon, management methods for the ill will improve and some drug treatments are showing promise in helping people survive it although there's a long way to go. A vaccine is obviously the most desirable answer and could be here later this year but may well take 18 months. Too many variables to make a confident prediction.

Biggest disappointment is the failure of antibody tests which will be a real game changer. I'm sure we'll get one that works soon. We also need a simple antigen test - ideally one anyone can use at home like the blood glucose tester diabetics use. There's a huge market and Google level money to be made from those which means a lot of people are working hard on it. Right or wrong, that's the way the world works.

Laws and lockdowns are helping but this is a marathon, not a sprint to the finish line.





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mrs bouquet

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 11:31 »
Seems I have done it wrong  -  again !!!!!  My post was basically a tongue in cheek comment to possible make you laugh  --  sorry if it didn't.    I obviously have a different sense of humour to some.   :lol: :lol: :lol:   I am well aware of the "no politics, - no religion" rules after 12+ years on this site, so I never write anything with either of those things in mind.  Mrs Bouquet

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Aunt Sally

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 11:47 »
Some people like to take things seriously all the time Mrs B.  I like to sway with the wind...  Must be too much cauliflower  :nowink:

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Goosegirl

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 12:26 »
… or too many beans on toast!
I work very hard so don't expect me to think as well.

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Aunt Sally

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 13:14 »
That’s Worzel’s favourite.  :ohmy:

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Growster...

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 14:26 »
"The herd community' statement has so many examples, it's become a buzzy non-description which was originally popped into the discussions as some reason to feel optimistic.

I heard an American scientist (maybe an epidemiologist), say that we had got it all wrong in the UK, and that his description was the right one, even though our scientists thought otherwise!

It's a bit late to keep plonking soundbites into discussions, because really, let's face it, nobody has a clue how to deal with this awful virus, and it has still to go completely around the world yet!

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rowlandwells

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020, 19:34 »
that makes good sense John and politics certainly don't play apart in this pandemic arena i know I've said this before from where  it all started from and the original thing that caused  this virus to happen because someone is going to have to tell us and  make changes if needed to keep the world safe and never let this happen again

this is an awful awful virus that i hope and pray someone can find a vaccine to end this terrible  loss of life and misery


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Wellington

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2020, 21:38 »
They found a vaccine and started testing a couple of weeks ago. Which is an an absolutely amazing feat of science and international cooperation, and should be celebrated. They have the genome for it too, which is wonderful. It just takes time to figure out dose and so on.  It needs to be safe, but also effective for a useful amount of time. I heard private money is being thrown at factories to gear up for production (I have not fact checked this myself yet, I only heard it this afternoon)

The virus didn’t ‘come from’ anywhere. No one is to blame for it. It’s just a virus. It’s probably been resident in pangolin populations for however long (I don’t think anyone really pays attention to colds in pangolins) And in December, it made the jump to humans. Viruses do that. Flu does it all the time. There are several hundred diseases that we share we animals, a lot of them are viruses. They are seriously bad news. There may be another pandemic start at sea world next year from dolphins, or from a petting zoo in Dorking from guinea pigs. Or there may not be one for another hundred years. Flu does this all the time. We must all hope desperately that this does not turn out like flu.  If we have to deal with multiple strains of such a lethal virus, well, I can’t even imagine how that might pan out for us. As it is, if we can keep virus load down and prevent mutation, we have a tough couple of years coming up. But then we get the vaccine rolled out and can ‘get back to normal’ hopefully some deep political lessons learned about keeping some slack in healthcare systems and paying more attention to science than profit.

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John

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Re: When restrictions are lifted .....
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020, 22:07 »
The Chinese mapped it and released the genome pretty early in the epidemic so I think a number of biotech companies have been working on it. I heard British American Tobacco were developing one in tobacco plants! Only problem is you have to have 20 jabs a day... (that last line was a joke but they truly are trying to develop a vaccine in tobacco plants)



 

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