[Sprouts]

One of our plot holders has complained to us regarding the use on some plots of old sleepers. I know that there are articles about the creosote in the sleepers being carcinogenic but some of these sleepers are bone dry and I can't see that they pose much of a threat. Anyone else had experience of this or anyone a contamination expert?

Thanks

Kevin

[devonbarmygardener]

There might be a chance in the rain that some chemicals might seep out.

[Welsh Merf]

My new shed is based on three old sleepers.

Just imagine where railway sleepers are fitted - all over the country!

[Sparkyrog]

Old sleepers are full of tar! but I have worked with them on and off for close to 40 yrs NP here

[bravemurphy]

I think they could have a point there where food is grown.

enviromental issues with creosolt could be another reason why all the sleepers are concrete now.

[mumofstig]

If they're not on his plot - it's none of his business. Simple as that really   

[simonwatson]

If it's a real concern you could always seal them with something, though IMHO that's a bit of overkill.

A quick Google suggests that plants don't take up creosote very well so in turn the amount that might be passed on to you through the food grown would be very low. Adsorbtion (sticking to the surface) is a bigger threat.

Studies of leaching rates from treated timber show that aged treated timber leaching rates are extremely low in comparison to recently treated timber.

One assumes that old sleepers won't have been treated prior to sale so can be considered well and truly weathered.

Lastly, leaching by rainwater has significantly more effect vertically than horizontally. This is not the same is the timber in question is sitting in a pool of water.

[fred-quimby]

I would plead ignorance and say that it is untreated and get him to prove it has. If this other plotholder is so concerned he should get a sample of said sleeper and have tp pay to get it analysed to see if it really does contain anything. He would, of course have to ask permission to go on the land otherwise he would be trespassing.  Would he be given permission?

[pdblake]

I think the correct answer to his complaint is that he is free not to use them on his plot.

[Hamani]

Yeah, if you're not bothered about them on your plot then there's no issue.

You can't tell your neighbour not to use weedkiller anymore than you can tell them which sleepers to use (or not use).

Although, if telling people that its non of their business ... try to be polite about it 

- Gary.

[moose]

There is however legislation that needs to be borne in mind:-

Selling/supplying creosoted timber (“placing on the market”)
Wood treated with creosote prior to 30 June 2003 may, without restriction, be placed on the second-hand market for re-use (typically old railway sleepers).
Wood treated or re-treated (in any way) with creosote before or after 30 June 2003 and placed on
the market for first time use, may be placed on the market but only for industrial and professional
use.
However, although it is the user’s responsibility to comply with the restrictions on the use to which creosoted timber is put, WPA recommends creosoted timber should besupplied with user guidance –
 
Using creosote-treated timber
Wood treated with creosote prior to 30 June 2003 and placed on the market for second-hand use
(typically old railway sleepers) may be used (by DIY, professional and industrial users) in any
situation apart from those listed below under ‘Restricted uses’.


Restricted uses:
After 30 June 2003 creosoted timber(all forms) may not be used:
1.inside buildings,
2.in toys,
3.in playgrounds,
4.in parks, gardens and outdoor leisure facilities where there is a risk of frequent skin contact*,
5.in the manufacture of garden furniture such as picnic tables,
6.for the manufacture and use and any re-treatment of:

 containers intended for growing purposes
•packaging that may come into contact with raw materials, intermediate or finished
products destined for human and/or animal consumption,
•other materials which may contaminate the products mentioned above.
Most of the specific situations listed above, e.g. toys, garden furniture, are in any case not suitable for creosoted timber due to risk ofstaining clothing from contact with any creosote there may be on the surface.
*The DTI has published guidance on what frequent skin contact means: “Frequent could be defined as “happening or occurring often or at short intervals”. In the context of the creosote directive, frequent skin contact could be considered as repeated (habitual) contact of the skin with, for example, creosote-treated railwaysleepers. Habitual practices such as constant sitting, leaning against, laying on, walking on creosote-treated woodcould be considered as frequent skin contact if there is no barrier between the skin and the treated wood. A personconstantly handling creosote treated wood, especially without gloves, as part oftheir job (daily routine) could be said to be making frequent skin contact with creosote”.

[pdblake]

That's all very well, but on earth can you tell when they were painted?

[savbo]

while not wanting to get into the ins and outs of these sleepers, I think the 'it's not his plot' attitude is open to challenge...if we thought a fellow plotholder was doing something that could poison the soil long-term, like treating posts with used engine oil, we would complain. If this chap really believes there is an issue, he has a right to voice it, then it's down to plotholders to sort it out with reasoned evidence...which is exactly what you're gathering

I would say that in my experience even the driest-looking sleepers can exude quite startling amount of tar/creosote - usually after hot spells. I certainly would never use them where children might come into contact, like school allotments - would use tanalised or untreated timbers instead

sav

[maxie]

Lol at the advert below this thread "used railway sleepers" i must say they do look quite good in the gardens in the pics.
I would tell him to mind his own business theres always someone moaning about something,its a few old sleepers,which are obviously legal to sell.

[fred-quimby]

The guy in question who is complaining goes around plots (especially committee members) taking photos and reporting to the council anything and everything he can find no matter how minor.  They get 10 - 20 emails a week from him.  They are a new committee who took over last October and most are new to allottmenteering (it is a new site) and for some reason this guy has nothing better to do and has 'it in' for the committee members.  One of the plotholders feels so intimidated by said guy that he will go home if he sees him come onto the site - poor guy is 92 years old but will not report him because he 'does not want to make a fuss'.