[bexybeck]

I'm afraid I have to agree with everyone here. I've always kept ex-batts and at first was very reluctant to (as I thought) pump them full of chemicals because that's what had happened to them in the battery.

Well, it only took one hen dying from a chronic worm infestation (and a disappoving look from the vet) to tell me that verm-x, the natural wormer, is massively inferior to flubenvet and that natural isn't always best.

It's a nice idea to only feed them 'natural' foods but really, layers' pellets are natural. And if you get organic, you know no chemicals have been used in its production. There's a good reason (well explained above) that companies formulate hen food for you. You can always supplement with 'natural' things like a handful of corn in the evening or a bit of lettuce.

[pippa123]

well a vet would tell you Flubenvet is more superior because its only available through subscription and you have to pay through the nose to get it so it most certainly should be superior to Verm X

Flub is very good stuff but Verm is only a preventetive (if your chooks have worms it wont iradicate them only Flub will)) you give it to the hens along with some acv and you shouldnt have a problem with worms unless the hens were all ready infected ive kept hens for over a decade now and never had a problem with worms and my hens have only had Verm X through out their lives.

My problem with comercial foods is all the chemicals that go into them and Organic is usually more expensive and doesnt make your hens organic their are DEFRA rules to what makes a bird organic.

[Lindeggs]

...  My problem with comercial foods is all the chemicals that go into them and Organic is usually more expensive and doesnt make your hens organic their are DEFRA rules to what makes a bird organic.

This is why I was hoping you would define what you mean by 'natural'.  Obviously from your comments natural doesn't mean organic.  So does it mean whole and cracked grains rather than crushed and pelleted grains?  Or does it mean pasturing your hens rather than feeding them a grain-based feed?

At the moment I have four giant bins of chicken food in my spare bedroom!    (I'm setting up a local chicken feed co-operative because I've found it so hard to find feed around here!)  All four bins contain commercial feed formulations.

Bin1: A feed made of whole and cracked grains with added vitamins etc.  Contains no animal products so it can be used in places where ruminant animals may sneakily grab a mouthful!  Due to the lack of animal products it must contain added amino acids to be a complete feed for chickens.  It also contains mould inhibitors.

Bin 2: A pelletted feed made of pretty much the same ingredients as above, minus the mould inhibitors.  Because of the heat used in the pelletting process, it is safer from mould than the whole grain feed in Bin 1.  Again no animal products, so lysine and methionine are added.

Bin3: A completely organic pelletted feed.  Contains orgainic fish meal to provide amino acids.  Because it is organic and pelletted, it contains the lowest level of added chemicals both in its manufacture and in the crops that are used as its main ingredients.

Bin 4: An organic layers mash.  Made by a different company than above, but basically the same ingredients just ground finer.

So Bins 3 & 4 have by far the lowest level of added chemicals, because of their certified organic status.  Bin 1 looks the most 'natural' because it still contains recognisable grains.  My chickens by far prefer to eat the contents of Bin 2.

[hillfooter]

well a vet would tell you Flubenvet is more superior because its only available through subscription (sic)

My problem with comercial foods is all the chemicals that go into them and Organic is usually more expensive and doesnt make your hens organic their are DEFRA rules to what makes a bird organic.

Flubenvet is not only available via prescription it's available on line for around £28 for the 2.5% .  It's not expensive particularly the 2.5% which is enough to worm 200 birds so 14p per bird approx every 3 to 6 months.  VermX 250ml costs £19  and is enough to worm 55 chx per month or 32p per bird and needs to be given every month.  So flubenvet costs around 1/7th the cost of VermX and what's more it actually works on a broad spectrum of worm species unlike VermX.  

The active ingredient in VermX is not mentioned on it's website but I think it's............you guessed it ..........garlic.  I surmise this because in response to a Avertising Standards Agency challenge about the efficacy of VermX the manufacturers Paddock Farms Partnership submitted a report which stated that garlic, an ingredient of VermX "had broad spectrum activity against" certain parasites.  It's supposed to be a repellent so I guess they smell garlic on their breath and the worms rapidly wriggle off in the opposite direction.  

In 2009 PFP were forced by the Advertising Standars Agency to withdraw it's advertising claim that VermX worked for a broad spectrum of animal species for all known internal worm species.  The ASA found they could not offer robust evidence to support such claims,  reference ASA 74895.

In other words it's expensive garlic which hasn't been shown to control all known internal worms.  In fact PFP are so confident about it's efficacy that on their horse worming literature they offer advice about what to do if your horse gets worms whilst on a course of VermX.  They also advise you to regularly test for worms!

The impressive awards VermX has won that they mention on it's web site are concerned with it's organic credentials and one they also quote is for making money.  None that I can see, or at least none that they mention, are connected with it's efficacy.  

PFP claim to do extensive research yet in 2009 all they could offer the ASA in support of VermX's efficacy claims was a student project study from 2006 of it's use in an equine application.  The claims which were objected to appeared in an alpaca magazine and the manufacturers admited that the product had not been tested on alpacas such was their extensive research.  I'm not even sure this report was peer reviewed, the very minimum of scrutiny scientific research should under go.  The ASA ajudication said this report and other vet submissions did not support the claims made for VermX see the full text of the adjudication on

http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and-ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx
HF

[ManicMum]

I like the idea of natural food - for humans, children ( a separate sub-species with some very strange dietary preferences), dogs and chickens.

However, in the busy life I lead, I do sometimes buy a meat pie for the family but rarely a frozen dinner.  The dogs have a complete dried food, but because I think the pellet type looks boring & textureless, we feed a grainy/flake mix with a molasses smell & stickiness - all our dogs and their guests have loved it for over 20 years.

For the chickens, I provide pellets in a feeder bccause that is a guaranteed balanced diet for health and for egg production.  And they get a wander round the garden at intervals. However, I help them to display natural behaviour & "forage" by chucking into the run all sorts of weeds and veg peelings and tired fruit and the odd bit of stale bread: it all gets eaten so I feel I am giving the chickens the best of both worlds.

[bexybeck]

Thanks hillfooter, I was going to chime in with something similar but you got there before me!

No vet ever told me flubenvet was better, I got that from reading the extensive literature in the forums trying to find out what was wrong with my sick hen (I was a total newbie at the time). I then took the hen to the vet because I suspected it was worms and he told me it was too late. I had already realised my mistake and bought the flubenvet online but as I said, it was too late for her. It took me a long time to get over the fact that I had essentially killed her. I got the feeling the vet had seen it all before.

I relayed the story as a cautionary tale, because I would hate for someone else to hurt their chooks in a misguided attempt to be kind like I did.

Pippa123 - "Organic is usually more expensive and doesnt make your hens organic their are DEFRA rules to what makes a bird organic"

I wasn't concerned so much with making the hens themselves organic, but the farming methods do make for a better environment for wildlife to thrive in. I thought that might be a consideration for some. We use organic ourselves but there would be no point at all in trying to get my little flock of three certified organic because I don't intend to sell the eggs! Organic is also not much more expensive than ordinary good quality feed, at least not at my feed store - it's maybe £1 or £2 more expensive for a 25kg sack.

Bex

[Lindeggs]

Oooh I'm jealous!  For me organic feed is twice the price of the other brands! 

I agree about the reasons for preferring organic feed though, and for me it's about the whole life cycle of the feed rather than any desire to have my back yard certified organic!

I like that organic feeds don't contain the level of agricultural chemicals in other feeds, and are processed and handled in a way that minimises cross-contamination.  I also like that they don't contain palm kernel oil or GMO ingredients. 

Also in NZ many chicken feeds contain cheap by-products from the processing of other animals - eg tallow, blood and bone meal.  (I believe the rules may be different in the UK).  In NZ organic feed doesn't contain any of these by-products.

But given the huge price difference, our new co-op has decided to stock two brands of organic feed and two brands that aren't certified organic but fulfill all our other requirements (no GMO, no palm kernel products, no waste from the freezing works and no soy treated with hexane).

[pippa123]

Yes I mean by natural cracked grains, grasses ect not organic foods though I may give the organic a go the next time I buy feed given by what people have said.

What makes me unhappy about feeding regular commercial pellets are the number of additives ((sp?)) and extra bits that go into pellets just like with anyother pet commercial product or ready meal.

[bexybeck]

It depends what you mean by additives - minerals and vitamins are added to make sure that the hens are getting everything they need from the food. Smallholder free-range layers pellets contain added omega 3 and added vitamins and minerals (including calcium) but no artificial yolk pigmenters, for example. Cracked grain and grasses can't supply everything the hen needs.

If you have the time (and the money) then formulating your own feed, as mentioned above, might be an option for you. If you're looking for something cheaper than commercial feed and more natural it's not likely you'll find it.

The problem you have (which has already been mentioned) is that hens aren't even natural themselves, and they certainly aren't part of the local fauna. They have been bred to need the sort of things that are in commercial feed. In the wild, they would never lay an egg a day for example, and as a result we have to provide the massive amount of vitamins and minerals that are depleted from their bodies.

It really is a lovely idea, and I fully understand why you're exploring that route, I just don't think it's feasable unless you have a lot of money you're looking to get rid of.

[Lindeggs]

I think the main thing is to read the list of ingredients - whether the feed is pellets, mash, visible grains or any other form.  Like I said my pelletted feed contains fewer "added chemicals" than the feed with whole and cracked grains.  But I have studied and rejected dozens of different brands in my search for the 'perfect' food.

If 'natural feed' means fewer added chemicals, then certified organic is the best way to do it.  The second best way is to track down a carefully formulated feed that has ingredients you're happy with from an honest and reliable supplier. 

The form that feed takes (pellet, grain, mash) is not a measure of how many chemicals it contains or how potentially harmful those chemicals are.  Only a complete (and honest) ingredients list and a basic understanding of the manufacturing process can tell you that.

[hillfooter]

I like the idea of natural food - for humans, children ( a separate sub-species with some very strange dietary preferences), dogs and chickens.

However, in the busy life I lead, I do sometimes buy a meat pie for the family but rarely a frozen dinner.  The dogs have a complete dried food, but because I think the pellet type looks boring & textureless, we feed a grainy/flake mix with a molasses smell & stickiness - all our dogs and their guests have loved it for over 20 years.

For the chickens, I provide pellets in a feeder bccause that is a guaranteed balanced diet for health and for egg production.  And they get a wander round the garden at intervals. However, I help them to display natural behaviour & "forage" by chucking into the run all sorts of weeds and veg peelings and tired fruit and the odd bit of stale bread: it all gets eaten so I feel I am giving the chickens the best of both worlds.

That's really no different than we as consumers do too.  There's nothing wrong with using organic food for your birds or yourself it's all a matter of degree. 

We usually try to buy as much local produce as possible given the choice, rather than go out of our way to only buy organic.  Sometimes this might be organic but that definitely is a secondary consideration.  We have a local farm shop which has lots of his own locally produced veg which we buy because it's excellent quality.  As he's also strictly organic he sells other more exotic fruit and veg which he doesn't produce but we tend not to buy these routinely if they aren't local.  For example, not that we buy eggs, but his eggs come from several hundreds of miles away and we wouldn't buy these just because they were organic.  We also buy food from the supermarket which is sometimes organic but again we aren't religious about it.  We aren't overly concerned about the use of chemicals in agriculture although the veggies we grow ourselves are organic.  So I guess we all have our own preferences though I prefer not to be religious about such things.

The whole natural and artificial argument I find rather contrived and artificial too.  Everything we are, touch and breathe is made from chemical elements and comes out of the ground.  In fact we are all and everything else is quite literally star dust.  Of course the level of refinement, purity and concentration can be manipulated by man through industrial processes.  Just as biological processes which happen without man's intervention can refine and concentrate them. At what point can you say this is natural and this is artificial and at what point can you say this is good and this is bad.  The dividing lines are fuzzy and ill defined.  What most people would say is natural is not always good and vice versa. 

In the world we live in we surrounded by manufactured items which we literally are dependent upon and without which civilisation could not survive.  We can't as a civilisation go back to living in caves so to speak and self sufficiency is just a dream for the few.  It would be nonsense to argue that the industrial world we live in is bad.  For these reasons I don't subscribe to the "natural" is good the "artificial" is bad dogma.

HF

[joyfull]

arsenic is a natural product and certainly not good to eat but does have its uses in the metal industries  .

If you wish to mix your own grains then please do try but ensure you get the correct mix to ensure that you feed your birds enough of each type to cope with their needs and please do make sure you feed them a calcium supplement such as crushed oyster shell to help keep their egg shells strong - you don't want your birds to suffer with internal infections and possible death from soft shells breaking internally