[Bodger]

Some of the practices in farming do appear cruel, especially if you apply the Beatrix Potter mentality to farm animals. Applying human feelings to chickens and animals doesn't work, because they simply havent got them.
Practicality should not be mistaken for cruelty.

Given the choice, I'd preferr to eat free range food thats devoid of nasty chemicals but whilst it would be better for the animals concerned, my over riding reason would be because its actually better for me and mine.

We can afford to buy free range food but thats down to our good fortune, the vast majority of people can't.

There are a few things that people should realise as well though, and that is that whilst there is undeniably bad practice going on in some areas of  farming, the farm animals are a product that are going to be eventually killed for us to eat. There's no nice way of hiding this fact, they will be killed and turned into meat.
To replace big scale intensive farming an alternative has got to be found and at the moment nobody has come up with one .
To those who think that the whole world should become vegetarian, I say " you can have my share of nuts and soya"  

All pigs, cows, calves sheep and most chickens are bred to eat. It doesn't matter to them at what age they get the chop. This is how we get our meat and those who can't come to terms with this either turn vegetarian or pretend that meat is actually grown in polystyrene containers with a cling film placenta surrounding it.

   
_________________

[WG.]

Does this make me a bad person ?

Nope - must be summat else    

(sorry, I know this is a serious thread)

[Aunt Sally]

It certainly does not make you a bad person Bodger as I know you would not condone cruelty to animals.

It just makes you a person with a particular opinion.

We all have those  

[Bodger]

Phew .

[Viv]

No you are definately not a bad person.
I am quite unashamedly a meat eater. But, I buy my meat from the local farm shop, they sell the beef and pork,chicken and lamb that was raised on the farm, the conditions are excellent. Yes I do pay slightly more, but I also feel that the food tastes better and I know where it has come from.
It isn't over expensive and I would think quite within most peoples budgets, - we are not well off, we do have months were things are tight, but I will not buy from the supermarkets.

[Ruth Cross]

I agree, your not a bad person.
My shopping thought train for meat;

1st: Production method (intensive organic free range)
2nd: Purchase point/source (supermarket, local butchers)
3rd: Taste
4th: Cost

[Contadino]

No, you're absolutely right.

All pigs, cows, calves sheep and most chickens are bred to eat. It doesn't matter to them at what age they get the chop.

I still wouldn't eat suckling pig, though.  For me it just hasn't had a long enough life.  And before anyone asks, no I don't know where I draw the line.

[Jellyhead]

No I don't think you're a bad person either Bodger. I have to say that here in France Chicken is more expensive, and guess what, people still buy it. I dont mean to be patronising but  I believe that people will pay "the" price for a chicken and what I mean by that is that if like petrol the price "just went up" and that was that then people would have a choice. TO BUY OR NOT TO BUY. They need petrol so have no choice. So I think, dont have intensive farmed chicken as a choice. I know what I mean   :oops: just not very good at explaining, it is 7.45 here and I am blond  

[chickychick]

nope sorry you are not a bad person, from this evidence anyway

However as for your statement that 'it doesnt matter to them what age they get the chop' I think that is stretching it a bit!  I asked my chickens this morning if they would like to get the chop sooner or later and I bet you can guess what they said.

I beleive animals have a right to as good and long a life as possible however I also recognise the practicalities of meat production.

[tallulah]

I don't apply anthropomorphic principles to animals, or as you say Bodger, the Beatrix Potter way of thinking about animals, however don't you wish to question what is done to animals, apparently for the benefit of us consumers?  This particular consumer doesn't like animals treated as units of production (which they are), treated on the whole as non-sentient creatures,  (which is how they are treated - ever been prodded with an electric cattle prod?) or being presented to me as something I absolutely cannot survive without, and isn't it my right to have it at the cheapest possible price?  (Er - no ta!)  They say that the sign of a truly civilised society is the manner in which it treats its older members.  That's a good benchmark, but so is the way a society treats animals.  Humans have taken over 'ownership' of the planet, to the detriment of practically every other species.  Where on Earth is there where animals are free from our influence?  Who do we think we are??

[DeadlyNightshade]

@Contadino:

If I'm not mistaken and suckling pig is used over here on long pokers over a fire as well: the original reason for killing pigs at that age is  the fact, that most of those had a disease (most commonly pneumonia) and are permanently affected by this, eg stunted growth. Instead of feeding something , which is not going to turn the meal into profit u just kill it there and then whenever the growth has stopped.

besides: commercial chickens are killed at 35 days, the average beef at supermarkets is bull beef which is usually killed around 12- 15 month.. still children as well


Bell

[GrannieAnnie]

If we all became vegetarians, then a lot of animals would suffer by it, because they would become extinct!  Many animals are bred purely for their meat, so if no one wanted beef anymore, there wouldn't be many cows would there?  Its okay to keep pet chickens, but not many people have a pet cow!  Okay you'd still get some for milk as some vegetarians drink it, but even milk is cruel!

Also I say my poultry have as good a life as I can give them, but I can't say I let them live as long as possible, or they'd be too tough to eat!

When we were growing our turkeys, someone at work said to me, if you have any left over that don't sell, do you keep them until next Christmas?  Simple answer to that is NO!  They go in the freezer, and we eat turkey for the rest of the year!!!! lol

[psipower]

Applying human feelings to chickens and animals doesn't work, because they simply havent got them.

An unsubstantiated claim? (Choosing an assertion because it would support your current viewpoint)

Practicality should not be mistaken for cruelty.

...said the torturer...

Given the choice, I'd preferr to eat free range food thats devoid of nasty chemicals but whilst it would be better for the animals concerned, my over riding reason would be because its actually better for me and mine.

OK ! Most people hide their selfish reasoning under layers of socially acceptable rationalisation. At least you aren't suffering from that here!!!

We can afford to buy free range food but thats down to our good fortune, the vast majority of people can't.

It may be you don't pay in an immediately obvious way 'up front' for intensive farming etc, but in the long run in terms of health, environmental degredation... maybe it costs more?

There are a few things that people should realise as well though, and that is that whilst there is undeniably bad practice going on in some areas of  farming, the farm animals are a product that are going to be eventually killed for us to eat. There's no nice way of hiding this fact, they will be killed and turned into meat.

If you are rearing them for meat, so be it, but I hope you are not arguing we should accept those who do the bad practice because the animals are only going to be killed anyway...

To replace big scale intensive farming an alternative has got to be found and at the moment nobody has come up with one .

Ultimately, it requires people to develop into full 'humans', rather than remaining at the 'I want' stage - be it large families, 4x4s, any general immediate gratification of wants etc. etc.

Until people look at and understand themselves, and make the effort to improve, then there is no solution, technological or otherwise, that can help anything much that goes on in the world. Those that are 'good' are far too hard at work restraining and ameliorating the effects of the weeds to be able to develop the garden.

To those who think that the whole world should become vegetarian, I say " you can have my share of nuts and soya"  

Usage of good arable land for animals is wasting 90% of food capacity. And that's before we start growing fuel-crops!!! Cut down the number of people, perhaps? I'll have your nuts, but I'm not interested in the soya - especially if it is trying to pretend to be meat, or GM!

All pigs, cows, calves sheep and most chickens are bred to eat. It doesn't matter to them at what age they get the chop. This is how we get our meat and those who can't come to terms with this either turn vegetarian or pretend that meat is actually grown in polystyrene containers with a cling film placenta surrounding it.

'All' may be an exaggeration (especially if it came to Hindus?) But I know what you mean. I became vegetarian 23 years ago solely on the principle of moving the 'killing' line as far down the consciousness scale as practically possible. But my best friend actually has kept chickens and believes in (and has done) killing his own meat - although the supermarket is more convenient. We get on fine because we both get on with what we genuinely believe in.

As for 'good' and 'bad' - do you want to start a religion discussion? - now that could get heated!!!

[Bodger]

My claims are substantiated, thats the basis of my post.

Your response maybe heart felt but its certainly not objective or well thought through. At the end of the day you are yet to come up with a viable alternative to modern large scale farming in the REAL world.

[chickychick]

I believe that psipower post WAS well thought through, that is quite apparent,  heartfelt too which I also admire, I found the points made clear relevant and interesting.

As for it being objective, it is pretty impossible to be absolutely objective as we are all influenced by life, and our natural bias are there to be expressed as a result of our experiences of a long and informed life.  

As for expecting psipower to come up with a viable alternative to modern large scale farming, I am sure that this is available from the vegetarian society websites, however I dont know why you would expect psipower to produce it.

Both posts can be substantiated .. thats life isnt it!

Thankyou for both of your points of view, its good to see a debate on here for a change...just a word of caution lets keep it friendly