[chalkie]

Hi all

i need advise, im sarting to grow veg patch on virgin ground that hasn't been dug in years

do i need to dig it first or can i roatavate it straight away





title edited for search purposes

[Yorkie]

Dig first, definitely 

Unless you remove all the perennial weeds (docks, nettles, couch grass, brambles, ground elder, marestail, etc) first, the rotavator will chop their roots into lots of little bits ... leaving you the present of lots more plants!

Some people do use glyphosate weedkiller once the weeds are growing more strongly (another month or so, probably - please edit your forum profile to show your general location so we can advise more precisely) and then allow the weeds to die of for several weeks, before rotavating.  However, I wouldn't trust it to have killed off enough roots before rotavating.

[GrowinGrowinGone]

Deffo do not rotovate!  I made that mistake when I got my first plot,  I have been forever digging and removing couch grass by hand and by the bucket full since.  You're probably really over enthusiastic to get on and planting etc.  But it's really worth taking your time to clear it first.

[fekq]

if you've just got some turf to remove, or the odd dock, dig.

if your patch is covered ALREADY in nettles, bindweed and brambles as ours was, rotavate.

but as you rotavate, get someone to follow you picking up all the bits of bindweed, nettle root, bramble etc that gets dug up, and bin/burn them. then rake over the (lovely, loosened) soil and pull all the other bits of root you uncover. then next week, do the same. suggest, depending on the type of soil you've got, that you also rotavate in some compost when you rotavate the second time.

then you start with a nice, clean lottie, that you keep a watch on for regrowth of perennial weeds, and pull 'em up as soon as you see them. after a couple of years, based on our experience, you'll find you've pretty much got on top of the weeds. and in the meantime, you've cleared soil that you can start planting in, which also means - since you'll be religiously hoeing and weeding  - you're removing more weeds as you go.

we tried digging by hand, which resulted in despair (will we ever get this cleared) and tennis and golf elbow in both arms in my case from pulling up nettle roots from deep within compacted, heavy soil.

rotavation fears of chopping up weed roots doesn't make sense really if your plot is already covered in weeds - you're not going to make things worse, as long as you pull out all the bits of root that you uncover. you can see weeds starting off again on your nice clean surface, and just remove them as they grow.

[bigben]

rotavation fears of chopping up weed roots doesn't make sense really if your plot is already covered in weeds - you're not going to make things worse, as long as you pull out all the bits of root that you uncover. you can see weeds starting off again on your nice clean surface, and just remove them as they grow.

If you glyphosphate an area with lets say 100 established nettles. If applied properly the poison should kill say 90+ percent of them down to the roots, leaving just 10 to deal with. If however you rotavate first you then have 5 times as many smaller roots that are now capable of becoming independant plants. Each now needs  treating individually so you risk making the problem worse. I would be tempted to glyphosphate first, then dig out as much as you can, let anything left pop up and deal with it before rotavating.

[greenhead]

I would dig over first with a digging fork get all the couch/bindweed out then rot ovate over to get a fine tilth.  Leave the annual weeds in to act as a green manure.

[fekq]

do be careful if you use weedkiller to avoid killing off anything you might want! lottie next to ours was weedkillered, which resulted in the two pretty fruit trees being killed, a load of dead weeds which were then completely over taken by more live weeds in a couple of months time! (they've now rotavated -- still waiting to see if they're actually going to keep it clear!)

one thing to remember with a new lottie is that no matter what method you use to clear it, unless you keep on top of the new weeds, they WILL return!

[Aidy]

Going against the grain here  I know of at least one person who goes by the name of Shaun who would join me.

If you own a rotavator then there is no reason why you cant get stuck in, both Shaun and my self have done this over the years and been very successful with it, the trick is to rotovate on a regular basis, and clean the roots etc along the way, if you hire one and do it once then yes the nightmare begins as has been stated above.

I think it is Aunty who will say about marestail "never let it see a sunday" this of course works for all weeds, so by turning the ground over and over you will weaken the weeds, even couch grass to a point where extraction of their roots is easy.
See Shauny's piccys.... http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=30851.15

And his method "the 1st pic is my plot ,2-3 years before that pic it was waste high in brambles nettles etc.i strimmed the lot had a nice fire  and turned the lot over with a mini digger,then after that its had plenry of muck and lots of rotavating,the only time i use a spade is to lean on while i'm watching day go by 
the 2nd pic is next to mine and he has a tractor (fergie) its his little toy with a rotavator deck on it plus ridger   "

[gremlin]

Any dumped bricks, concrete, or other junk under the surface that would make first time  rotavating exciting?

I'm a hand-dig person myself. 

[carlrmj]

 I took on a plot of land 18months ago that hadn't been used for growing veg.It was covered in perennial weeds,the first thing I did was strim right down to ground level.

 I then sprayed with weedkiller  to get kill  the weeds.After this I dug the soil over,removing dock,couch,nettles(time consuming and backbreaking but if you don't get rid of them at the start you'll regret it later,don't use a rotovator,as you'll only make more work for yourself later on.)

 The next step was to leave the grass upside down to die off,and rot down and remove any weeds that survived the weedkiller,because it was August when I started I spent the rest of that year getting it ready for the following year. 
 
 I also found loads of eelworms ,and chaffer grubs.
 Hope this is of some use,and best of luck.

 Carl

[Toptugger]

I was in the same situation last year. I sprayed with Round up GC concentrate, not the pre mixed stuff.
It took a few months of spraying and raking and then in the autumn i dug it over by hand and covered with a few inches of horse manure.
This week i have rotovated it and the soil seems good.

[DD.]

 
 I also found loads of eelworms

You must have pretty good eyesight!

[richyrich7]

I'll agree with you too Aidy, like you say if you have access to a rotovator then use it.

Problems comes with those that use it once only and think they've done 

[fatbelly]

I'll agree with you too Aidy, like you say if you have access to a rotovator then use it.

Problems comes with those that use it once only and think they've done 

I agree don't rotavate if you only have access to the Rota once. If its yours and have regular access then rotavate. Thats what I do.

[grendel]

my theory is to use a rotovator, and use it regularly, I have found that most roots dont get chopped with my rotovator, they wind themselves around the tines (I generally stop after a couple of passes at the end of the row and untangle the blades, by regularly using the rotovator the weeds dont get the chance to grow or get sustenance and will eventually give up. (I can hope) then once you have your crops planted you can weed regularly to keep them clear. I generally turn the ground at least once a fortnight until planted up.
Still its all down to personal preference at the end of the day, and how much time you have to devote to the plot, I generally change the direction I am rotovating each time too, ie turn 90 degrees on the next pass. I will also go down to a narrow 2 tines from the 4 before running a strip across to loosen things up prior to planting.
just my take on the situation. others have their preferences.
Grendel