[Ben_H]

Morning All,

Being new to this chicken keeping thing I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to friends who have hens.

Some use garlic in the water, others ACV and it seems to come down to which they discovered first and that as an additive they do similar things.

Is there any evidence (scientific or experiential) that one is better than the other?

Can you mix and match? - I see from the blurb that you can give ACV over a period of 10 days and then have a maintenance dose every week or so. Would using garlic in between cause any problems?

Should I just have two water containers, one with garlic and one with ACV? I have two anyway to prevent one hen guarding it from the others.

Should I just stick with garlic as it's cheaper than ACV as I grow it on the allotment?

Your thoughts would be appreciated

[hillfooter]

There's no scientific evidence either is of any value.  There's lots of anocdotal folksey stuff on the benefits of both though so if you are the sort of person who likes to take supplements and believes in magic potions you might use them.

Backyard chicken keeping is full of hand me down advice and potions most of which these days are either unnecessary such as Poultry Spice or is just plain folk lore such as ACV & garlic.

My advice is just stick to a basic feeding plan layers pellets ad lib and a handful of poutry corn each in an EVENING only with the ocassional treat or household (vegitarian preferably cooked) scraps.  Note it's illegal technically to feed chx ANY food which has been prepared in a kitchen which is used for the preparation of human food.  Any meat product is a definite no no.

We are conditioned through advertising to believe the answer to all our ills and health problems can be addressed with the food we eat so if our chx are ill it's because they need to be fed this or that.  However my philosophy is based on the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid!).  Only consider using supplements for a definite medical reason ie a multivit if they are recovering from an illness or limestone flour if they have poor eggshell quality.  Once the reason to feed the supplement is past stop it and in anycase never continue it indefinitely or feed a supplement as a matter of course.  The only thing extra from a layers compound feed they MIGHT need is oystershell grit which should be offered ad lib not directly fed and is more likely to be of benefit to older hens.  So save your money and use it wisely for the things which count.  A wonderful example is Red Mite control if your are spending more than £10 a year on red mite you aren't using the right methods.  I don't spend more than that for 5 houses and haven't seen a Red Mite in years.

I've kept chx for many years in upto numbers of 50 and never used or felt the need to use ACV or garlic or any other supplement other than a multivit.  But no doubt there will be those who swear that the eggs taste better or their chx are kept healthier with this or that supplement.  

Most minor ailments will right themselves given proper husbandry and time without medication but when we give them a so called tonic we are apt to ascribe the "cure" to that tonic irrespective of the likelihood they would have got better anyway.  It's a bit like the white powder I sprinkle round my chx run to keep away elephants.  Works a treat so far I've never had a chicken trampled to death

HF

[joyfull]

I have several feeders and in one I have crushed garlic cloves another has ACV and others just plain water - my chickens seem to prefer both the ones with the additives. 

[VickyW]

I have one drinker with garlic in it but then I also add acv, is it ok to mix? the girls seem to like it

[hillfooter]

I have several feeders and in one I have crushed garlic cloves another has ACV and others just plain water - my chickens seem to prefer both the ones with the additives.  

Interestingly I did an experiment with ACV to se if in fact it was true that they prefer ACV added to water.  To make it as objective as possible I put out two identical drinkers one with added ACV (1ml / Litre) and one with plain water and renewed each at the same time but alternated their position so that there was no bias based on where the drinker was or it's design.  At first it seemed to be that they drank more from the ACV drinker but after a few days of doing this I found they actually started to drink more from the plain fresh water.  My conclusion was that introducing something new is initially popular but the newness effect wears off over time.  I therefore decided to not as a matter of course use ACV as after all it's more expensive and takes time to manage.  However it may be of benefit to use ocassionally when you want to boost fluid intake ie in hot weather but the boosting effect is at best temporary.

The question is if ACV doesn't in fact give any benefits does it do any harm?  This I'm not sure about either as in fact ACV used to be prescribed to diabetics to reduce the effects of hypoglycemia (gross lack of blood sugars) and the acids in ACV does reduce the potassium in the blood.  The Potassium calcium balance is a vital factor in maintaining proper bodily functions and egg shell quality, so I was more concerned that using excess ACV might actually be a factor in reducing egg shell quality.  

Though I've no evidence that it does harm I've none that it does good either, and I mean scientifically proven evidence not simplistic anocdotal evidence herbalists too often quote.

HF

[Em David]

Oh do you get many elephants around your way Hillfooter
We only seem to get giraffes !.

[Topscaff]

Besides keeping chickens I also keep greenfinches which are prone to going light (Coccidious) and over the years I have lost quite a few but since adding garlic powder to the food (I use the one for horses from the farmers market) I have not lost any where near so many birds so I would say it does help.

[Lindeggs]

Hello Ben H and welcome.  I'm not clear from your posting what it is you are trying to achieve with the garlic and/or ACV?  There are all kinds of claims for both, but they are quite different substances so I think you need to know what you're trying to achieve in order to judge whether they are effective.

I disagree with Hillfooter about there being no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of either product.  I have recently linked to a variety of studies showing that ACV is an effective treatment to minimise the damage from over-feeding of calcium.  Garlic is also effective in boosting the immune system therefore reducing the severity and duration of minor viral and bacterial infections.

On the other hand I have seen garlic recommended as a 'natural wormer'.  This certainly didn't work for my chickens and I haven't found any studies supporting its effectiveness.

Personally I use both garlic and ACV at various times for various reasons.  I also give my pullets chopped pumpkin seeds, linseed (flax seed) and sometimes multivitamins.  Combining any of these seems to have no ill effect.

[hillfooter]

Oh do you get many elephants around your way Hillfooter
We only seem to get giraffes !.

You should try the white powder we never see any elephants or giraffes it's powerful stuff   but maybe that's missing the point.

HF

[hillfooter]

......................I disagree with Hillfooter about there being no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of either product.  I have recently linked to a variety of studies showing that ACV is an effective treatment to minimise the damage from over-feeding of calcium.  Garlic is also effective in boosting the immune system therefore reducing the severity and duration of minor viral and bacterial infections.

On the other hand I have seen garlic recommended as a 'natural wormer'.  This certainly didn't work for my chickens and I haven't found any studies supporting its effectiveness.

Personally I use both garlic and ACV at various times for various reasons.  I also give my pullets chopped pumpkin seeds, linseed (flax seed) and sometimes multivitamins.  Combining any of these seems to have no ill effect.

Hi Lindeggs,

Well I never said that ACV doesn't have any effect in the body I said there's no scientific evidence that supplementing either routinely has any value.

I'd be interested in any links you have seen which provides scientific evidence of the value in routinely supplementing ACV.  I see so many claims for it's benefits but I never see a consistent set.  Seems everyone has a different idea of it's benefits for example I've seen it claimed that it reduces acidity as well as claims it increases acidity in the gut though I'm not sure why either should be beneficial.

Garlic has a natural antiseptic quality which soldiers used in past times as an emergency makeshift field dressing.  It's often sited as a natural antibiotic but things which might work on the surface don't necessarily work in the body.  For example fairy liquid will kill cancer cells in a test tube but I wouldn't recommend anyone drink it as a cure for cancer.

For what benefits do you use ACV & Garlic?

HF

[Dominic]

I have a mini feeder with ACV in it, they have a nip every now and again.

I think its all a bit of a con for general use, but in certain circumstances, it can be useful.

[hillfooter]

I have a mini feeder with ACV in it, they have a nip every now and again.

I think its all a bit of a con for general use, but in certain circumstances, it can be useful.

It's those "certain circumstances" that I'm trying to get a handle on?

My stance is that Layers compound feed is a general purpose COMPLETE feed containing all the nutrition a layer needs so any supplement needs to address a deficiency which is evident for an individual.  What deficiencies do these supplements address.  All I ever see is that it HELPS with this and that (ie it helps restore the bodies acidicity levels!) which as far as I'm concerned is bull**** weasel words expressing a fond hope rather than a real proven benefit.  Garlic helps with everything it seems, including vampires, all except tooth decay.   The other favourite suggestion is that they are a tonic whatever that is?

I don't feed my chx on any medication or supplement I don't know is addressing a specific need and no one can actually tell me what the medication / supplement is actually doing.

HF

[Dominic]

Hill
When my chickies need some extra calcium, they eat the oyster shell, and some days they eat the whole bowl, other weeks, they dont touch it.
When they need extra grit, again, they know to go get that, so, if they have a nip of ACV, I figure they needed that as well.

Chicken Food is a complete balanced food, but its a complete balanced food for a healthy chicken.
My chickies barely eat the pellet food over the weekend when they free range, and theres little guarentee they are going to get a balanced diet from grass, my girlfriends flowers, and any slow insects or predictable flys.
That also leaves a deficiency, due to illness or randomness, optional supplements allow them to fix those.

[SMS6]

when I was doing all my reading in preperation for keeping chickens I'm sure I read some where that garlic can taint the flavour of the eggs???

I lifted all my own grown garlic yesterday and was cleaning it ready for drying off and none of my three showed the slightest interest in it, where as when lifting potatoes I have to swiftly move the greenery so they can't eat it.

[joyfull]

mine have had garlic and apple cider vinegar and never had a garlic tasting egg yet (I suppose it depends on how much they eat).