[Colernehens]

Hi, I bought 4 new LF Orps in April, they were POL, so I reckon about 20 weeks old. Within a month we had lost one, then we lost another one about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Now we seem to have another one who is showing similar characteristics.

All three had no visible signs of illness, the second one that died laid until about 3 weeks before she died, and the one that is not so good now last laid on 3rd June.  All three had antibiotics and were wormed, but nothing changed.

The common factor with them all is that they stopped eating layers pellets, they foraged and went mad for treats, yet would not eat pellets. This resulted in obvious weight loss, which I think in the end is what finished off the other two. We tried everything to get them to eat and build them up again, nothing worked and now its happening all over again.

Any ideas, we are at a loss 

She seems quite keen over the last two days to pick up the spilt growers/chick crumb mix at the edge of the run our chicks are in, would it help if I made some growers available to her, would it help build her up? (I would have to get some non-medicated as chicks are eating medicated at the moment)

Would growers do my laying hens any harm, or should I separate her if I am going to give her growers to temp her?

The only other thing I have noticed and have no idea if it is significant is that her comb has not grown at all since we got her, and now I think back the other two had very very small combs too. (In fact my chick who is undoubtedly a cockerel has a bigger comb then her). Could this be a sign of something genetic?

Any suggestions gratefully received, I really want to do all I can to save her.

Many thanks

[Helenaj]

Non medicated Growers feed/crumb should not cause problems for your hens, but they will need some form of supplement as the growers feed contains higher protein to allow the chicks to grow and will not contain all of the vitamins and minerals a laying hen would need to produce eggs.
Could it be the layers pellets they don't like? Try changing the brand or swapping to mash - most hens love mash. If she starts eating the new food, try and lay off the treats - they may be filling her up but contain no calories. Corn is particularly bad in that respect as it has very little nutritional value but stays in the crop a long time.

[ANHBUC]

Try using your layers pellets with some boiled water to make a mash, a bit like porridge.  Let it cool before giving to your hens.  It does tend to make their poo more runny but they usually love it.  If ours wouldn't eat it we would know they were ill.

Hopefully someone will give you some advice on what is causing your problem soon.

[themagicaltoad1]

You say they forage, does this mean they are free ranging in your garden? could be they've picked up something that is killing them. Try keeping them in a run where they can only eat what you give them, and mix a bit of fishy cat meat into the pellet mash for extra protein until she's built herself back up.

[Colernehens]

I have kept them off treats since the second one got ill, they get some melon seeds about once a week if they are really lucky, and corn about twice a week, nothing more.

The food I am using is the same brand I have always used and she was eating it till the cows came home 3 weeks ago, same as the other two did, so I can't think its the pellets themselves.

They do have free range in a penned area in the garden, I have thought about it being something in the garden, but what I don't understand is why its not effected the 3 Hens we had before, if it was something in the garden, wouldn't the illness be more Random, rather than 3 hens that all came from the same breeder?

If I put out some growers I would still have layers available so the laying hens would get all the right vits & mins etc etc. Perhaps I could just put the layers down later in the day before bed and maybe shut her in the run with some first thing in the morning.

I did try making a mash during the really cold weather we had in Dec/Jan and they wouldn't eat it  but I could try again.

You say they forage, does this mean they are free ranging in your garden? could be they've picked up something that is killing them. Try keeping them in a run where they can only eat what you give them, and mix a bit of fishy cat meat into the pellet mash for extra protein until she's built herself back up.

We did try that with the one that died two weeks ago and although she picked up for about 24hrs, she then went down hill very quickly again, and wouldn't even eat that.

Thanks for all this help it is appreciated, even the vet has no idea what is wrong. I just wish I could help her.

The fourth one we got, seems fine, huge comb laying well eating well - its a mystery   

[hillfooter]

Are you feeding anything other than layers?  have you checked for sour/ compacted  crop.  Sour crop usually makes their breath smell rancid.  Is their crop pendulous bloated or hard.  It does sound to me like a toxin either from something in the garden (compost heap) or possibly a mould in their feed or corn.  Has it got wet at any time?  Is there any mould or are there any hardwood chips in their run which has mould?.  Mould in feed can show up when illuminated under ultra violet light as it fluoresces.

I'd be inclined to change the food and get it from a different supplier and ensure they have a daily clean supply of water.

Have you checked for any breathing problems rattlely breathing, coughing sneezing. Unusual droppings particularly very liquid whitish droppings or green flourescent droppings.  Are there any signs of listlessness or depression which might suggest an infection of some kind?

Have these birds laid or do they keep visiting a nestbox without producing any eggs which might indicate a start of lay problem.

Chickens do not just die in numbers without there's some underlying problem, the odd one may drop dead for no apparent reason without symptoms but not 3 otherwise apparently healthy hens.  If you can't pin it down see your vet.
Best of luck
HF

[Colernehens]

have check all the usually things like sour crop, nothing found.

Their food is kept inside in a dry environment and I only put out enough for a day, so I am sure the food is ok. No wood chip, so I think that should be ok. Compost is fenced off, but we will look at that and make sure that it is not possible to eat anything from it - but if this was the cause I would have expected our older 3 girls to be showing the same symptoms.

No coughing, sneezing or rattling. Mostly watery droppings now she is not eating, but perfectly normal up to that point.

Yes she had been laying for about 8 weeks.

The vet has seen them, gave antibiotics but that didn't give any improvement, wormed them too just be sure.

It is really strange - they literally are fine one day, laying eating acting totally normal, then they just stop eating their pellets and go down hill, but carry on eating treats and grass and so on right up to the end.

[joyfull]

if she is that bad take her to a vet and ask for an autopsy - they prefer chickens to be still alive and they will cull them. This will then help find out the problem and help prevent it from happening again 

[basildog]

I have had a similar problem recently with 2 Pekin bantams I bought in in the Autumn.  They never did develop a comb and never looked really well or were as heavy as the others, despite being wormed and well fed   I took them to the vet who put them on anti-biotics but sadlly they both died quite quickly and we never did discover what the problem was.  The vet suggested a post mortem but I am afraid I didn't take that route.  I am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but in the end we decided they were from bad stock.  But if anyone else can shed any light it would be a big help.

[Colernehens]

We did consider an autopsy with the one two weeks ago, but weren't sure what they could find with no real symptoms. Might have to if this one doesn't improve.

We are beginning to think that it maybe is just bad stock. The buff we got at the same time has really grown and developed, you can see that when you look at her, but this one has not grown at all really, she has grown back some of the feather she lost though feather pecking at the breeders, but physically she has not changed size much at all, and her comb is just the same.

Very sad really as we want to help but nothing we do seems to work. I certainly won't be going back to that breeder though.

[joyfull]

I would still get an autopsy done - just to be sure and if it is a problem with the breeder then you can go back with proof.

[hillfooter]

Hhmmm could be Lymphoid Leukosis see http://www.poultryhub.org/bird-health-and-disease/lymphoid-leukosis/  This usually strikes birds at maturity and one of the symptoms is loss of appetite, emancipation.   If so there's no cure and an autopsy should be able to confirm.

Below is a paste from http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/disviral.htm with relevant passages in bold.

"Lymphoid leukosis characteristically produces lymphoid tumors, particularly in the liver and spleen. The tumors may also affect other visceral organs such as ovary and lungs. Affected birds may die without preliminary symptoms, but the disease usually is chronic in nature and affected birds show loss of appetite, progressive emaciation and diarrhea. Clinically affected birds invariably die. Losses due to the disease are most severe shortly after onset of egg production, but losses will continue for as long as the flock is retained. Total loss may approach twenty percent during the life of a flock.

Clinical diagnosis of lymphoid leukosis is based upon flock history and disease manifestations. The lymphoid disease cannot be readily distinguished from the visceral response to Marek's disease; however, there are some features that aid in differential diagnosis.

There is no treatment for lymphoid leukosis. Although the disease cannot be prevented completely, there are certain steps that can be taken to help control the level of infection within a flock. Some steps are:
•Buy resistant strains of birds since genetic resistance is a deterrent,
•Brood in isolation and do not mix birds of different ages, especially through six weeks of age,
•Keep the incubator clean and disinfected,
•Control blood-sucking parasites,
•Good care, limiting stress, and adequate ration will be of benefit"

Chickens with lymphoid leukosis show nonspecific clinical signs including inappetence, weakness, diarrhea, dehydration, and emaciation. Infected chickens become depressed before death. Palpation often reveals an enlarged bursa and sometimes an enlarged liver. Infected birds may not necessarily develop tumors, but they may lay fewer eggs.

Best of luck
HF

[basildog]

Unfortunately this sounds familiar.  Lost a couple of bantams the previous year and did have an autopsy done and it turned out to be lymphoid leukosis although at first it was thought to be Marek's disease.  The bantams I lost this year were not showing the same symptoms as the ones last year and the vet thought it was not the same disease.  From what you describe it does look as if this disease has returned.

I wonder if some breeds are more susceptible than others?  I keep Cream Legbars as well and (fingers crossed) they have never looked anything other than extremely healthy.

[Colernehens]

Thank you for all the advice, it does seem very likely that this could be the cause.

I have read the links, but I will get my husband to read it too as he has a Biology and Medical degree so will no doubt understand it better.

Lets just hope that my older girls and chicks don't pick it up. The chick although in the same area (so they have chance to get to know each other) are in a separate hen house and run, so as they have no actual contact with the poorly hen or the older girls, hopefully they will be ok.

If we have a post mortem done, I will let you the findings.

Thank you all once again.

[JACDORE]

hi, just lost no.3 hen a few days ago and reading this topic she had Lymphoid leukosis.  Our vet didnt know what was wrong so just gave her 2weeks of Baytril but after a week she just got so poorly it wasnt any quality of life so we PTS.  Dont think she would of lasted much more