[Yorkie]

I tend to use the list which yorky has put up (and that's not just Yorky/ies sticking together  )

[yorky]

If anyone can tell me in advance when the last frost will be this year in Leeds, I will be very pleased to hear it.

[DD.]

There's a good chance it will be December 31st or thereabouts..  

[mumofstig]

I tend to use the list which yorky has put up (and that's not just Yorky/ies sticking together  )

perhaps you could stick together with me and Joy larkcom as well then   

Joy Larkcom's book GYO Veg says that Early Winter is December, mid-winter is January, and late winter is February etc.

[Kristen]

If anyone can tell me in advance when the last frost will be this year in Leeds, I will be very pleased to hear it.

There is some risk involved, of course, and all (well, if not "all" then "most") of us keep some fleece handy for the unexpected, or unwelcome, late frost.

[solway cropper]

Weeks before/after last frost is also a moveable feast and will vary from year to year. I really don't think there's any hard and fast rules that can be given to beginners. It's all down to experience and most of us learn the hard way. I remember thirty odd years ago when I lived in Teesdale the seed packet said broad beans could be sowed outside in February. Not if you want them to germinate they can't 

[Babstreefern]

I would put winter as being November to February; spring March to end of May; summer June to August; autumn September to end of October.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy - when you're standing at the bus stop going to work in November at 7:15 in the morning, it certainly feels like winter; brrrrr

[arugula]

I would agree with Joy Larkcom, although if you live in Argyll then Argyllie is probably right!

But the solstice and equinox dates were the same when i lived in Herts.

[GreenOwl]

Indeed ... but I'd like to have a feel for how I should adjust any advice I give for people living in Scotland (or Cornwall, for that matter). I reckon that "Spring" on the back of a seed packet is designed to muddy the date .. or to instruct only "experienced" gardeners who know what that means, for their garden - which I don't see as being much help to newbies.

Hence I wonder if we couldn't put more credence in "weeks-before-last-frost" as a basis for when to sow, rather than "Spring" or "March"

I would think beginners would have even less feel for "weeks-before-last-frost" then "Spring" or "March".  I don't think non-gardeners tend to notice frosts quite as keenly.  Plus that's a guessing game as well.

I'm in the Yorks, Joy Larkcom and Mum camp as well although Babstreefern has a point about winter seeming to be the longest season!

[Kristen]

I would think beginners would have even less feel for "weeks-before-last-frost" then "Spring" or "March".  I don't think non-gardeners tend to notice frosts quite as keenly.  Plus that's a guessing game as well.

Indeed, but it does seem to be a yardstick that is used in America, and there are resources for it - nice little maps etc.

There are resources in the UK too - e.g.

http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/main/weather1-result.asp

although Aberdeen, Ediburgh, Birmingham, Cambridge, Oxford all have the same dates

Here's possibly a better resource:

http://www.overthegardengate.co.uk/garden/frostsurvey.asp

"Occasionally a reporter will give advice such as… 'those people living in the NORTH should sow a BIT later'

What I have set out to clarify is... 'where is NORTH and how long is a BIT'"

Based on that, taking Birmingham as a average point, folk in Scotland should plant 20 days later, and folk on South Kent coast 20 days earlier ...

[Sue32]

thank to you all - I got more than I expected and all of it good thoughts. What a rgeat discussion.   I think here in Cornwall I'll assume spring starts in March'ish   

[strangerachael]

One more point to make... it also depends on what you are planting, ie if it's something frost tender such as runner beans or courgettes, 'weeks before last frost' is the most relevant factor. For hardier veg, frost is not so relevant as soil temperature, minimum 6 or 7 degrees I believe is necessary for most things to germinate (correct me if I'm wrong). This might happen in February some years but not until April in others. And then again your shallots and garlic and possibly broad beans aren't quite so fussy. It's a steep learning curve.

[prakash_mib]

for me I assume when the daffys arrive thats the earliest spring. I have couple of spots (in the city scape) to look for and avoid early bird spots. and then calculate each month roughly as yorkie suggested.
last frost is a gamble. last year last frosts were threatening at late end of may/early june. but still everyone had a (well almost everyone except me  ) had a wonderful year of produce.
take risk/gamble - but dont do too much.

[Paul Plots]

Being a generally cautious person I find the seasons 'happen' rather too quickly for me some years....

I wait patiently (and that's not easy) for the right sowing and planting time often to find that everyone else has taken a chance / gamble and I'm a bit behind. 

But.... it does occasionally pay off. I was late putting my spuds in last year but mine missed the heaviest frosts and some of the others lost theirs completely - the same with runner beans.

It's all a bit of guess work and a bit of experience I guess.

Insuarance: Keep some plants / seeds as back-up 

[stompy]

It has been made much simpler nowadays, there are only 3 seasons.
Spring, Autum and Winter