This is getting ridiculous now

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D

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This is getting ridiculous now
« on: October 23, 2010, 20:04 »
Some of you may remember me posting about my Aracauna cockerel who died the other week and as a result I had some tests taken. These came back and the only thing they pulled up was e.coli - which is all around and wouldn't kill any of the birds in accordance to the vet. Anyway, he gave me some Baytril to treat the other birds for there bubbly eyes and sneezing. This worked wonders for a day or so. None of the birds are sneezing any more - however two of them now have one of there eyes closed. The first one I noticed, I thought she may just have been pecked or something so didn't make anything of it. Then today I noticed one of my other hens wouldn't leave the coop. When I checked her she also kept one eye closed and she tilted her head to one side so that the closed eye was looking up. Is there a chance that they both have eye problems or has the Baytril failed? This is getting a bit boring for me now since I've had nothing but trouble for weeks - kids stealing and killing birds, illness making its way through the flock - killing one - mites and lice, illness coming back and to top it off my Maran 'hen' is actually a cockerel!

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bantam novice

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2010, 20:38 »
sounds like you have been though the wringer  :)  Can't help with advice but I'm sure someone more experienced will be able to comment.  I just wanted to wish you luck and keep us posted.
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orchardlady

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2010, 22:03 »
As said it sounds like you've been having a tough time. There is little advice I can offer apart from (if you haven't yet) get on top of the Red Mite problem as fast as you can. The mite take a huge amount of energy from your hens plus the colder weather takes energy to get through to. Do you use a decent poultry supplement? e.g. Life Guard. You can buy it at a decent feed merchant. Also try some Apple Cider Vinegar, plenty of green veg  and maybe an occasional tin of tuna in spring water (no salt). It sounds as though your hens are just plain feeling run down and so are getting ill. A boost to their diet might help them get their vim and vigour up and running to be able to face the task of getting through the cold British winter and fight off  infections.

Keep smiling :)

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henamoured

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 23:21 »
D - it's sounds as though you've had the worse possible luck - surely it can only get better?!!
I think that Baytril is like penicillin for humans - a sort of broad spectrum antibiotic. You may need to try them with another one, I would get back in touch with the vet asap.
In the meantime you could try bathing the effected eyes with cold tea.
I'd echo Orchardlady's advice about diet plus some supplements and I think fresh grass or fresh greens everyday do a lot of good too.
If the mites & lice have really effected them it might be worth bathing them to ensure any lingering irritation is eased and then frontlining them (as well as continuing on your mite regime with the coop).
Fingers crossed for you and let us know how you're getting on.

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wolverine

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 07:58 »
You have had kids steal and kill your hens :ohmy:?????????? why would they do that I would steal and kill them :mad: see how they like it. I feel for you I can undersand ilness as part of life but those little basta errrrmmm kids need teaching a lesson.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it."

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joyfull

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 09:54 »
I agree with orchard lady in that you need to get on top of the red mite problem as soon as possible - as the mites will be getting their blood every night these chickens will become anaemic and run down very quickly - this then will leave them susceptible to all sorts of infections. If poultry shield isn't sorting the mites out then try bowden and knights for some Ficam W and this will get rid of them however you will have to ring them up and order it.
Staffies are softer than you think.

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D

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 11:31 »
Last week I finished with the mites and lice spray - the vet gave me some Ivermectin which I put directly onto the chickens as per his order for three weeks. During this time I was also spraying the house out completely with some red mite spray. I had started to notice that the birds had started to get better and stop sneezing to a degree which I started to feel happy about untill the cockerel died which is when I got the Baytril.
The birds are almost constantly on fresh grass - the coop is split down the middle and is rotated often enough. I give them lettuce leaves quite regularly and other vegetables. During the day they eat layers pellets and when I go up there in the evening I give them some corn.
Unfortunately there was little change this morning infact it was quite the opposite. One wouldn't leave the coop and I managed to get the other one out to try and feed her but she seems to have lost all perception of depth - I had a pot of corn for her which she tried to eat out of but she never lowered her head enough to get anything. She's also wondering around into things. She did however manage to have a drink of water which I suppose is atleast something.
I think I'll have to go to the vets again afterwork tomorrow and see what he says, I'll also try washing the eyes out.

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bantam novice

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 12:04 »
Good luck D and keep us posted

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hillfooter

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2010, 12:34 »
Oh dear D what a tale of woe.  Maybe you need to step back a bit and go to a simple regime of treatment and nutrition.  First of all I don't know what the RM spray is but if it's Barrier it's not effective and doubly so if sprayed on the house and not the chx, if it's Mite Kill it'll be very expensive and not very effective either.  You maybe overdoing the RM spray so I'd stop that immediately and tackle the RM with FicamW and Diatom.  Invermectin isn't very effctive at getting rid of a RM infestation as they only visit the birds in their later nymph life stages and as adult mites.  It will kill them but won't do it in short order.  A residual pesticde like Ficam will and have a lasting effect.  Diatom slurry painted on the perches after the initial infestation is gone is an effective preventative.  Don't dust it as you obviously have a respiratory infection issue too and dust is the worst thing you can do in the house where it will iritate their breathing and sinuses eyes etc and be a dangerous infection vector for viruses.  By all means use Poultry Shield but cheap washing up liquid with a dash of Vanodine V18? disinfectant is equally good, if not better, and a lot cheaper.  Use this to wash out (all detergents will disinfect many bacteria and viruses).

Anti biotics.  How long did you treat them with Baytril as it sounds as if you may have stopped too soon.  I like to use for a min of 5 days and 7 is the norm.  Usually 3 days is showing a big improvement but you still need to complete the course.  Tylan maybe an alternative a/b to try assuming the Baytril isn't being effective.  Do they rattle (ie a gurgling breathing) if so a lower respiratory infection maybe the problem.  These are difficult to shift and may well never be solved and your birds will continue to be carriers.  The eye bubbles and nasal discharge and sneezing is a sign of a seccondary upper respiratory infection against which a/bs are usually effective.  However I agree with Orchardlady thet your birds seem run down and stressed so will be susceptible to further infection.  Good nutrition is essential in building them up but personally I'd not use tonics and pick me up supplements but keep nutrition very simple layers pellets in the day only and treats and mixed corn and the tuna might help in the evening.  If they are free ranging I would think that the greens aren't needed and I rather not bulk them up with high energy foods during the day.  The only supplement I've consider would be a multivit and there are other cheaper and as effective ones available as Lifeguard, which has all the hallmarks of a quack tcure all reatment.  Try the one in the photo available from Wells on the web or any good farmers store.  Much cheaper and lasts well.

In short try to avoid stressing your birds further without chopping and changing their feed regime, treatments and over handling.  Get to grips with the RM using an effective pesticide and cleaning regime, cut out the over the counter patented sprays and magic cures and on bird treatments.  Keep them dry sheltered and as quiet and warm as possible with the basic simple nutritional diet.
HF
MultiVit.jpg
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 13:03 by hillfooter »
Truth through science.

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D

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 12:57 »
It has recently been recommended that Diatom be used to me. Do you just apply it to the perch's? Not the rest of the house? I think I'll have to get myself some of it.
As for dust - I use paper shreddings as bedding in the coop. Is this alright or should I switch to something else?
I have been over the coop several times with some cheap (co-op) disenfectant and scrubbed everything down, followed with a RM spraying.
The birds were treated with Baytril for about four days in there water before it ran out. The bottle said to give 4ml per litre of water, so  I rationed the water in the run down to 3 litres which was just enough. The Baytril seems to have worked in preventing sneezing and runny noses.
When I tried to pick the second hen up (daft on my behalf - she's not one that likes being handled) her breathing did get rather heavy and sounded like she was gurgling. The others are breathing alright.
I'll avoid handling the birds for now especially the not-so-friendly-ones, I'll stick with the feeding regime at the minute - I only give them mixed corn in the evening and occasionally veg as well. There are ample places for them to hide from the rain - either under the coop in the coop or under one of the feed shelters.
I'm going to nip to the vets this afternoon and see what he has to say and try to get some more treatment.
I would just like to say thank-you to everyone who has given advice and I assure you it is all being noted and used.

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Chicken Pete

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 14:58 »
D.  Sorry to see of your woes it sounds unfair to get everything together!!
Have read Hillfooters message and it sounds that the suggestions could help solve many of your problems.
With regard to Baytril,i recently had to give my chickens this but gave via syringe down their mouth, it was a struggle but atleast you knew each chicken had received the dosage.
Their treatment was for 10 days so it may be yours were a little short.
I not an expert but thought this might help.

Hoping this are/will improve very soon.

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hillfooter

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2010, 23:57 »
It has recently been recommended that Diatom be used to me. Do you just apply it to the perch's?See PM I sent which describes use of Diatom mixed in a slurry with Vanadine V18 disinfectant Not the rest of the house? The roosts are the most important areas to treat but you can also treat the nestboxes and nooks and crannies where you have seen themI think I'll have to get myself some of it.
As for dust - I use paper shreddings as bedding in the coop. Is this alright or should I switch to something else?Personally I'd say a softwood shaving such as Snowflake Premium or Hunter or Hemcore is by far preferable.   Shavings (softwood) is mildly antiseptic too due to the resin (ever used a pine chopping board?)
I have been over the coop several times with some cheap (co-op) disenfectant and scrubbed everything down, followed with a RM spraying.Household disinfectant is caustic but should do the job provided the surfaces are CLEAN so use a detergent first which will also help to kill bacteria and viruses.  It won't harm the birds if dry before they are let back in but if wet there's a possibility it can cause skin burns.  An iodine based disinfectant is the best to use on dirty surfaces as it isn't deactivated by dirt and droppings.  Vanodine V18 is widely used in poultry houses and pigeon lofts
The birds were treated with Baytril for about four days in there water before it ran out  This is too short and I'd recommend 7days.  It's very important that once you start an a/b treatment you complete the course as any surviving bacteria can develop resistance.  If Baytril doesn't work next time you should change to Tylan or other a/b your vet may suggest. The bottle said to give 4ml per litre of water, If this is correct looks like your vet gave you 2.5% solution which isn't the dilution recommended for chx 10% is the normal concentration.  You also should mix it fresh every day not leave it out for several days so all in all I think you will not have given a long enough course and the effectiveness will have dropped off after the first day as well so this is probably why it hasn't been totally effectiveso  I rationed the water in the run down to 3 litres which was just enough. The Baytril seems to have worked in preventing sneezing and runny noses.It's very effective and shows rapid results though the rattling could indicate a lower respiratory infection which may not respond to the a/b
When I tried to pick the second hen up (daft on my behalf - she's not one that likes being handled) her breathing did get rather heavy and sounded like she was gurgling  This bird could be a carrier and if a second treatment doesn't cure this rattling it maybe best to cull her as it's likely she may have a respiratory infection caused by a virus such as Infectious Bronchitis which can't be cured and if so she will be a continuing source of infection and also will stop laying. The others are breathing alright.good
I'll avoid handling the birds for now especially the not-so-friendly-ones, I'll stick with the feeding regime at the minute - I only give them mixed corn in the evening and occasionally veg as well. There are ample places for them to hide from the rain - either under the coop in the coop or under one of the feed shelters. If they become depressed it maybe better to isolate them in a warm outhouse for a while
I'm going to nip to the vets this afternoon and see what he has to say and try to get some more treatment.
I would just like to say thank-you to everyone who has given advice and I assure you it is all being noted and used.
If you get more Baytril be careful about administering it by syringe which I've done only as last resort.  Baytril is quite caustic undiluted and the normal dilution rate for 10% oral (which is what you should be prescribed) is 1:1000 ie 1ml in 1Litre water.  A chx will drink 200 to 250ml a day and to syringe this amount isn't very practical.  You'd be lucky to do any more than 20ml at a time so it would take a lot of applications to give a daily dose at the indicated dilution rate.  A lot of stress for the bird too.  I don't know what the highest concentration dilution is which can be safely given is.  Your vet may know.   Don't assume because your vet says 1ml in a litre of water you can syringe 1ml neat.  Chx drink according to their needs and body mass so the dilution rate allows the bird to self regulate the amount needed.  Once you start forced administering it you will need to estimate the correct dose.  Best to let the chx drink if it's able.

Best of Luck
HF
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 11:48 by hillfooter »

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D

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2010, 09:14 »
I saw the vet again last night now who gave me some more Baytril - this time in a bigger bottle so I'll have enough for a week. He also said that if it is mycoplasma it will be very difficult to cure all the birds and prevent it from happening again which I already knew. He finished off saying that if it persists its best left to the birds to try and get through it theirselves (basically it will be too expensive etc to carry on) which although its not quite what I wanted to hear I do repsect what he said and think he's probably right. All I can do now is this final treatment of Baytril and finish off the mites which will hopefully keep the birds fit and strong and make it easy for them to take this on. All bar one have survived this long so hopefully with increased strength the rest will follow (touch wood, fingures crossed, etc.). Thank-you HillFooter for your advice which I have taken and will undergo in getting rid of the mites.

Again, thank-you all for your advice.

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hillfooter

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Re: This is getting ridiculous now
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2010, 12:32 »
I saw the vet again last night now who gave me some more Baytril - this time in a bigger bottle so I'll have enough for a week. He also said that if it is mycoplasma it will be very difficult to cure all the birds and prevent it from happening again which I already knew. He finished off saying that if it persists its best left to the birds to try and get through it theirselves (basically it will be too expensive etc to carry on) which although its not quite what I wanted to hear I do repsect what he said and think he's probably right. All I can do now is this final treatment of Baytril and finish off the mites which will hopefully keep the birds fit and strong and make it easy for them to take this on. All bar one have survived this long so hopefully with increased strength the rest will follow (touch wood, fingures crossed, etc.). Thank-you HillFooter for your advice which I have taken and will undergo in getting rid of the mites.

Again, thank-you all for your advice.

I agree to some extent with your vet however Mg is usually associated with several secondary infections which cause the more serious symptoms you see and some of these will respond well to a/bs.  

If your chx are infected with mycoplasma gallisepticum (Mg sometimes called Chronic Respiratory Disease CRD)) this damages the mucus lining of their respiratory systems and will provide an entry for other pathegens to invade adjacent body organs.  E coli is often associated in a complex with Mg (I don't think the strain which affects chx is the one which affects humans) as is Infectious Bronchitis (IB again not a human health risk) for which a/bs aren't effective. The birds will often develop coryza with nasty cold like symptoms of nasal discharge, conjunctivitis, sneezing.  Newcastles Disease can also occur in a complex.  So although Mg itself may not be a killer or even sometimes cause very little in the way of symptoms it's role as a predisposing agent for other infections means it shouldn't be ignored.  Once birds are infected with Mg they will always carry the bacteria and have the potential to be carriers and a source of further outbreaks of infection.

Key in preventing spread and further outbreaks is good biosecurity and sanitation as well as good ventillation in the house (Mg doesn't survive long outside the bird having a very fragile cell wall it is quickly killed in the environment), reducing stress factors and maintaining the general health of the birds with good nutrition.  Controling parasites is important as a they cause stress through debilitation as well as being vectors for the spread of infections.

Best wishes for getting on top of this and returning your birds to health.
HF
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 12:35 by hillfooter »

 

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