[hillfooter]

Well as said, with my nurses head on now, many potent drugs were derived from herbs and still are so don't poo hoo them, its just the quantites that the companies supply them in the the general public that are rubbish (Ie. like over the counter flea treatments). I hasten to add use wormwood/artemisia for worms & its great but with due care as it's a poison.

Anymore recipies for the cauldron while its bubbling away?

You're right of course it's just the way some companies are exploiting the regulations and playing on people's prejudices.  Weasel worded marketing messages which probe the limits of what is allowable without being deemed to have mislead the public are all too common now.  Unfortunately websites such as Global Herbs http://www.globalherbs.co.uk/ which have a concoction for just about everything and dress up psuedo science as real science just get my goat.  They are very careful not to claim anything as a cure or remedy but use such wording as "helps with the treatment of X" or similar words.

Companies which are run ethically and do due diligence on proving the products and drugs they sell which is by no means cheap, are undermined by the get rich quick quacks who deal in psuedo science and innuendo.  In the end we will all suffer by having no effective medications anymore.  Unless we insist on the highest standards of proving the efficacy and safety of medications we will end up with just a shelf full of expensive and useless panaceas.
HF

[SUTTY1]

I try my best to be organic/natural with myself, critters and food i grow but at the end off the day proven science and chemicals are often needed!

[greenun]

Verm x is an unknown german worm. and a flubenvet is a german musical instrument similar to a trumpet 

[dizzylizzie]

It's OK to take risks with husbands DL but not with yer chooks 

Actually , you do have a point .....
i mean, i love him and everything....but you do have a point

[Kate and her Ducks]

I would love it if Verm x was actually effective as like most of you would like to avoid chemicals where possible. Unfortunately, like Hillfooter, I have looked into Verm X and even on their website there is NO evidence it works. Not one single trial or comparison of Verm X with a proven drug. Or even versus placebo (ie nothing) and I can't find anything anywhere else either. Was actually a little surprised that there was nothing available, not even one poorly designed, poorly powered, riddled with bias trial as trust me, with statistics you can prove just about anything.

So much as I would like a natural alternative and much as I agree that herbs and plants can have powerful actions, it's going to be the flubenvet for my ducks as it works.

[Casey76]

VermX actually creates a hostile environment for worms in the GI tract of the chickens, which makes it OK to use as prophylaxis... however if you have an infestation, you really need a chemical wormer to kill the worms.

And HF, while you may poopoo places like Global Herbs, I know of many people who use them, mainly in the equine world, and are happy to use them again, and again.  They have ben able to formulate a treatment for maladies which have left vets scratching their heads in confusion as conventional medicine was not doing what was expected.

[Kate and her Ducks]

i use herbal remerdies all the time with fab success.Only today my hubby cut his arm on weldmesh, ive cleaned it and applied manuka honey-stops infection

Manuka honey actually has some evidence behind it Lizzie! you can rest easy knowing that you have practiced evidence based medicine!  If you go to the pubmed site (link below, where most medical publications are referenced) and put in manuka honey, you get over 50 references for published data on it 

Nothing on verm x to be found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

[dizzylizzie]

I might use maunka honey on my hubby, but like i said in my other post i the difference between verm xand flubenvet is flubenvet actually works. I would always try to find a more natural alternative, but would never risk my feathered friends life by not worming them properly....flubevet for us everytime

[hillfooter]

And HF, while you may poopoo places like Global Herbs, I know of many people who use them, mainly in the equine world, and are happy to use them again, and again.  They have ben able to formulate a treatment for maladies which have left vets scratching their heads in confusion as conventional medicine was not doing what was expected.

There's much evidence that placebo effects and simply having a belief in something has tangible results we don't fully understand but by applying a rigorous methodology we make progress to understanding without recourse to pseudo science and mysticism.  Read Ben Goldacre book "Bad Science" and particularly the chapter on the placebo effect which examines some of these issues.

My motto doesn't mean that Science has all the answers but simply that the scientific method of enquiry, experimentation and data collection and analysis is the way to truth.  There's lots we don't know but we are well capable of learning, in contrast to the quotes on the Verm-X website which imply the natural world is a place of magical mystique we can never penetrate.

Lots of testamony without some hard data I'm afraid doesn't impress me. We should never close off our minds to the unknown and seek understanding.   After all, at one time the entire planet pretty much thought the world was flat and the heavens revolved around it.  If history teaches anything it is that the sum total of overwhelming ignorance doesn't add up to a single truth.

HF

[wildwitchy]

I think verm x probably has its place as an "expensive herbal supplement" if people wish to buy it. Personally I use wormers like panacur, flubenvet etc etc and add all the usual anti worming herbal suppliments for general good health-garlic,ACV, few herbs, honey to their food every now & then plus soured raw milk. Happy poultry & good eggs.

[Elcie]

This is a really interesting and informative discussion, thank you everyone.  I did order the Verm-X, I was on a chicken supplies site getting purple spray/diatom (for nest boxes) and poultry shield and the Verm-X came up as a suggestion.  Had heard of it and got it, but realised a while later on here that I had thought I had got flubenvet - if that makes sense?

So, I have a tub of Verm-X.  It is not proved to stop an infestation, but is there any harm using it as a preventative measure?

For the record, I am not anti-chemicals/drugs.  Like everyone I would prefer not to use them but wouldn't hesitate if it meant making one of my chickens better.

[hillfooter]

The only harm it does is to your pocket and the unnecessary suffering and damage it does to your chx if it doesn't work.  As long as you still use Flubenvet to worm and the chx drink it and it doesn't reduce their water intake it won't do any harm.
HF

[dizzylizzie]

Verm  wnt actually prevent thm either Elcie

[kzaba]

how does the treatment effect the eggs? is still safe to eat them, I have had someone tell me that you can never eat the eggs once you've treated the hens for worms with some of the chemicals on offer. As really new to this and just starting to enjoy fresh eggs i want to get this right!

[hillfooter]

how does the treatment effect the eggs? is still safe to eat them, I have had someone tell me that you can never eat the eggs once you've treated the hens for worms with some of the chemicals on offer. As really new to this and just starting to enjoy fresh eggs i want to get this right!

Flubenvet has no egg withdrawal requirement though there is for the meat if they are table birds.

Generally the advice you have been given sounds like rubbish to me.

HF