[Salmo]

Maybe we should abandon using the word organic. All it seems to do is to get people on their high horses about how morally correct they are.

I am totally with Rowan. My produce is "Home Grown". I know how it is grown and have full control over what goes on to it.

One function of this forum must be to pass on knowledge to allow everyone to use the best techniques to produce good food. I think we do that very well.

[NigelB]

We probably can Nigel but I think that you will find that the lawyers will come down against you in the end. You are using your allotments to grow food, same as the organic farmers.  And that is competition for business. If the local farm shop kicks up a rumpus, the council will go with him rather than you.

When something becomes a technical term, as organic has done in law, you will find that you can't half hitch it into a similar but not quite related situation.

Your council's lawyers will cover the backsides of the council and you may just not get away with what you want to do (- even if in three years time you are keeping all the rules on said ground).

Life can be a bummer sometimes. 

Just a starting note Christine. Having just re-read this post and before hitting the 'post' button, it occurs that it may seem alittle bit 'combative'. Please don't think I'm in any way 'having a go', I think it's more a case of pre-arming myself for the oncoming debate at the next council meeting. I hope that's ok. ................

It is funny though, and really, this is all in good humour;.....  the very notion that lawyers somehow now own a word that has been in common use since year dot, if not before, is hilarious! and made even funnier by the later comment :.........

When something becomes a technical term, as organic has done in law, you will find that you can't half hitch it into a similar but not quite related situation. .................
...............Because, in reality, exactly the opposite is true.   

Lawyers can't hitch it into a similar but not quite related situation, because they have defined their own  interpretation of what it means.
Their interpretation of the meaning of the word organic does not change it's historic meaning to those of us that use it as a natural part of our language, which is to decsribe what it has always done.
To me, organic means living, and it means working, as far as is practically possible, with nature and not against it. Organic is the very stuff of life itself.
I also empathise with the feelings expressed in an interpretation which has it meaning "Occurring or developing gradually and naturally, without being forced or contrived."
...
IF it had an opposite, and I don't feel that all words have to have one, that would be the so-called 'sterile' environment, where the practice of 'kill all life', sweep away and re-populate with only what is of interest for profit, is king........ Which is the world inhabited by lawyers, and not gardeners.

Also, don't forget, the original notices the word appeared on were not advertising, they were there for public information only, not for gain, and they were to appear inside the village public information notice boards.

Besides, it's our word, not theirs, so gerroff moy laaaaand!....   

[Christine]

There's one thing about you Nigel, you are prepared to defend a corner with a logical line of thought.  I'm quite able to take a sturdy opposite line of thought - all gardeners should be able to do that as we never seem to agree more than 75% on anything here - we all have our variations on every theme.

I think that I'm with Nobbie on the allotment version of organic and if we call the produce home grown as Salmo suggests then probably that's as near as we'll come to everyone being happy.

But poor old Nigel still has his councillors covering various parts of their anatomy by not wanting to put up his notice because they have been advised by their clerk/legal bod that the local farm shop owner will get on his high horse and call in legal opinion against the notice.

Perhaps Nigel, on your notice you should be going for "produce your home grown vegetables and fruit as organically as you can"?

I just threw in this topic to see what others think. All of us who seek to grow by as natural means as possible are going to be a long way down the truly organic road without even knowing it I suspect.

It's an interesting discussion.

[NigelB]

..............Snip...................But poor old Nigel still has his councillors covering various parts of their anatomy by not wanting to put up his notice because they have been advised by their clerk/legal bod that the local farm shop owner will get on his high horse and call in legal opinion against the notice.

Perhaps Nigel, on your notice you should be going for "produce your home grown vegetables and fruit as organically as you can"?..............

Of perhaps not............
The soils sample test results are in........ And I, for one, am a proper happy bunny...

Here's what they say...... And honestly, it couldn't have been worded better if I'd written it myself.................





Ready..?











The soil test results state....


" I am forwarding test results taken from the allotments field in Bodelwyddan.
The Ph (Lime status) is 7:3; This is ideal for growing vegetables and flowers.
The Phosphate, Potash and Magnesium levels are very good and there are no toxic levels of  heavy metals.
I, as an agronomist would recommend that this land is fit for purpose to be used for allotments and would also be suitable for organic use if the need was required."

I rest my case M'laud.
 


Perfect.

Thanks Christine, it was certainly has been, as you said, a very interesting discussion..

[Christine]

You are a very lucky lad indeedy. That report should make the council go ouch, ooo, er, ouch then. Are you going to keep us up to date with the saga?

I followed on to an allotment which had been used by the throw on more Growmore brigade as well as having been used for the repair of cars on the hard standing as well as possibly a bonfire site and even maybe had a pigeon keeper for a period.

It hadn't seen compost or manure added for a few years and digging over has produced endless interesting objects such as airfix plastic soldiers (remember the old kits?), windscreen wipers, old torch batteries and an awful lot of rusty nails. In fact the rusty nails are still appearing nearly three years on.

There's the famous story on our site of how many years ago the gardener's association secretary found a Ford prefect buried on his allotment. Another guy across the path from me is still digging over his plot to two spits deep - he took over a month after me - and is finding rusty bed springs, spanners, pliers, hammers and other assorted metal objects. There are a few other interesting stories around too from people who  have been there for decades.

We have some way to go to be anywhere near organic on any of our site don't you think? Come next season I might have done enough to the soil to get a report that says it's not too toxic but I still have my doubts and would give it full five years before I'd even dare think it to be anywhere near neutral soil, never mind getting a report like yours.

[NigelB]

You are a very lucky lad indeedy. That report should make the council go ouch, ooo, er, ouch then. Are you going to keep us up to date with the saga?

Heck yes!

There's not really much to add just yet though, as not enough members of the council turned up to make a quorum and so the whole thing dissolved into a shout-fest  ( )  as campaigners against a local development plan vented their anger at the few councillors that were there.
  Just another day in sunny Bodelwyddan...... 

So anyway, I'm calling a site meeting this Sunday for those interested, and whichever councillors aren't too busy somewhere else to attend  , so we can walk the field and discuss which part of it is best to use, or whether we can take the whole 4 1/2 acres on and have areas for bee-keeping, chickens, rabbits or whatever other livestock they deem fit, and whether or not it would be practical to have areas for coppicing, an orchard, a wildlife area and so on.
I still have half the village to leaflet before then though, and my feet already hurt so I'm going to have to try to bribe some of the local youths to push flyers through letterboxes...


...... Which reminds me, I really must get on and re-design the posters to announce the good news and invite folks....... And you can be sure the word 'Organic' will be writ large...

[JayG]

Personally I see "organic" as "the least chemicals I can introduce into my food chain"

Absolutely, and if anyone is in any doubt about how many chemicals are used and how often on just one commercial food crop have a look at this:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2008/06/26/110952/Potato-blight-control-merits-closer-sprays.htm

[NigelB]

Just an update......... For myself as much as anyone else probably....

The site-meeting I called went really well, except for the fact that the councillors hadn't much of a clue.
Plenty of people turned up to show support though, and that was the main thing. The council now knows there is a real need for allotments in the village. It was especially nice to see people turn up with their kids too, as it showed the allotments won't all be going to sad old gits like me with nothing better to do. 
Anyway.... They Mayor and council had marked out an area they thought sufficient for our needs, although in fact it was probably less than half of what is truly needed if we are to establish enough allotment plots to meet the NSALG-recommended amount of 20 per 1000 houses.

We are having a special one-issue meeting tomorrow night with the council, at which will be discussed both the size of area needed/allowed, and whether or not they will declare the site a 'statutory' one....
Fingers crossed.....

Meanwhile though, as word gets out, more people are becoming interested and I can predict now more confidently then ever that we will soon have a 'full house' as it were.
Better than that though, I've had (at last ) offers of help by people willing to go door-to-door delivering leaflets or whatever, so that's nice.


I'll keep this thread updated as and when..........


Cheers all.

Nigel.

[Christine]

But do your interested parties understand anything about organic growing? And does the council understand what organic growing means?

You might have a steep teaching curve there young man.

[NigelB]

Don't worry, I'll beat it into them.

Actually, it'll be down to the democratically-elected committee to decide if the site is to stay organic or not. I'll be hoping it is, considering some of us have plans to keep bees and other livestock on the site.
But again, outside of 'legalese', the word 'organic' can mean many things as previously discussed. It may be that the committee decides that a simple ban on spraying weed-killers may be considered enough. It's just too early to tell at this stage I reckon.

[Salmo]

To make a restrictive rule that an allotment site must be all organic is surely an infringment of human rights?

The way forward must be by education rather than only letting the converted in.

[DavidT]

To make a restrictive rule that an allotment site must be all organic is surely an infringment of human rights?

The way forward must be by education rather than only letting the converted in.

I agree with Salmo here, you can`t MAKE people grow organically.

[Yorkie]

Must say I tend to agree too 

[peterjf]

im not organic at all ,

but i get free organic manure from a farmer friend that is 100% organic,

[NigelB]

To make a restrictive rule that an allotment site must be all organic is surely an infringment of human rights?

The way forward must be by education rather than only letting the converted in.

I agree with Salmo here, you can`t MAKE people grow organically.

Must say I tend to agree too 

Why do I suddenly feel like I've handed out several sticks, wrong end first?

Who is going to make who garden organically?  

Thinking on though, it does raise a further interesting point.
Is it ethical to expect people to garden, in a shared garden environment, organically?

Short answer; Yes, it can be, in my opinion.

NOTE for clarity : WHAT FOLLOWS IS FOR DISCUSSION ONLY. IT IS NOT MY INTENTION TO IMPOSE ANY KIND OF RULE ON ANYONE. Or to upset anyone.

Now that's out of the way, yes, I do believe it is ethical to do so.
If the land is suitable for organic use, surely it would be no worse than having people destroy beneficial insects and plants living in a pristine site by gardening inorganically.
Human rights? You're kidding, right? Think about it. Who has the right to impose inorganicity (If indeed that's a word) on others?
Salmo, would you care to expand on your statement? (For the purposes of entertainment only  )