[Swing Swang]

Clareblues,

My inclination would be to adopt a 'permaculture'/potager approach and never plant the same type of plant into the hole that the previous one has been pulled out of. Otherwise just get on with it and forget about rotations on such a small plot.

Either that or only plant brassica one year (as you have done) then rotate with potatoes/roots/etc/etc. Which sounds a bit boring if you ask me. And I'd avoid only planting brassicas from one year to the next on the same patch even if you do love them

Quite expect to be disagreed with though.

SS

[Bozwell]

I have a raised bed 4' x 6' devoted to carrots. I do have to change the soil every year as I want to grow the same crop family.
If you don't change the soil or wait at least 3 years before growing that plant group again you really are asking for problems.

[SG6]

My point that I did not think rotation was applicable to a small area was simply that in place of waiting for the rotation to come round to have the nutrients in the ground, we simply step in with a trailer of manure, a tub of chicken poo or lots of handfulls of stuff like growmore.

We simply do not need to cycle round 3/4/5 years before the appropriate cycle has completed. If you want to dig in 2/3/4/5+ bags of manure and also rotate your crops then fine, but from the nutrients in the ground the necessity is not there.

If it was ONLY nutrients then by replenishing the nitrogen annually you could grow brassicas in the same place year on year. Your bag of NitroPlus is taking the place of rotation with legumes in the ground before brassicas.

Pests and viruses. Pests will not be put off by a plant being at one end of an allotment or the other. They will simply fly/amble/crawl/burrow their way along then start doing whatever it is they do to upset us. That I say is again simply the relatively small size. I watched a cabbage white do just this the other day. Started out on the Brocolli and eventually fluttered down to the Cauli's.

That leaves viruses and fungal attacks. The problem these present is their survival period without the host species on which they thrive. If like Onion White Rot it is in the 10-20 year bracket then rotation on something like an allotment is thrown out, additionally that infected patch is out of use for onions for xx years, I also say that I suggest the adjacent section also is out of bounds. That really upsets a 4 rotation system.

Concerning virus and fungal infections I simply say that digging the plot and walking across/over/on it will help move the problem from the initial location to the remainder of the plot (small size). You can dig an allotment over but not a field. Ploughing a field is similar but I would say that a local infection in a field would easily cover the area of an allotment but not necesarily cover the complete field.

There are I think many instances where it is said not to replant within N years and even after that the croping will always be reduced and the virus will return quicker. Basically they do not completely die out.

Here's a thought (tends to be a bad idea from me). Crop rotation for nutrients can be a 4 year system, a crop rotation for virus/fungal infections may need to be a 10 year system. Since we have easy access to fertiliser for an allotment sized plot we should consider abandoning a "classic" 4 year systems and develop a longer period system based on minimising infections.

(Off to the homebrew shop in Hoddeston.)

[willowman]

I agree.
I can't figure out how it's supposed to work when some people say "as you pull up plants fill the spaces with other plants". Well, won't this muck up the rotation system?
And what happens when some plants are sown in the spring for autumn pulling and others are sown in the autumn for spring pulling? There will be a cross-over of plots.
All very confusing for us beginners

[mumofstig]

[quote author=clareblues link=topic=41097.msg485663#msg485663 date=1247309597
My husband has made me a 4' by 6' raised bed and I have planted it with brussels, cauliflower and kale; all my favorites. From your discussions does this mean I cant plant the bed in the same way for the next 5 years without replacing the soil?
[/quote]

Theoretically it means not for at least 3 years
IMO, In your situation, in real life, if that's all you want to grow, then do it!. You will have to stop though if you get club root, cos then they just wouldn't grow properly So keep your fingers crossed
Rotation is quite difficult on a small allotment, and i think almost impossible in a few beds in the garden the garden, or in your case 1 bed Don't worry about it just enjoy growing what you can

[Yabba]

Don't worry about it just enjoy growing what you can

Rotate if you can, face the consequences .... if they ever arise ... if you can't, either way, enjoy growing and eating

¥

[zazen999]

I agree.
I can't figure out how it's supposed to work when some people say "as you pull up plants fill the spaces with other plants". Well, won't this muck up the rotation system?
And what happens when some plants are sown in the spring for autumn pulling and others are sown in the autumn for spring pulling? There will be a cross-over of plots.
All very confusing for us beginners

Crop Rotation [in my opinion] is to prevent the build up of disease - so when you grow thousands of brassicas or potatoes that are all harvested on the same day - you are likely to have a fair amount of issues if you then fill that plot with the same family type the next year.

I had an onion bed that had autumn sown sets over last winter. Along the north side, I dug a trough and put in a 'munty's bean frame' across the whole plot. I put broad beans and peas in 2 sections of the trough during the winter. As the onions came out, I put in small tomato plants; and these are now larger tomato plants. In between, where the very last onions were until 2 weeks ago, I put lettuces, and a few basils. Along the front [which did not have sets in, as they were about 10 inches from the south edge], I have put module sown and now 8 inch high onions. They have not touched the previous onion soil, so yes they are in the same BED but not in the same PLACE. Along each column holding the Munty frame, I have put various squashes, to climb up the frame and to grow along the path in front of the south edge of the bed.

As the broad beans and peas were finished, I then put in new climbing french beans, to fill the space.

I started off container gardening and try to think 4 dimensionally; rather than one crop per bed I go for a mix, of heights, widths, and depths [for root veg], and also for different timescales. I know when things are going to finish and come September/October most beds will be replanted with winter veg that has been sat waiting in seed beds - but as things die off [or get a blight and have to be taken out], they will be put in one by one to take up the space.

I'm not saying it is right, it is just the way I do it. Having beds makes it easier; and I sow stuff pretty much every week of the year for a succession of harvests, not just one main harvest. We dug up the first few spuds last week, which by the time we have dug a few more will leave me with a 2m width space; I will break it down with a hoe, put 2 canes either side to demarcate it and plant it with a decent amount of leeks. I had a spare space yesterday where the Garlic trial came out and I hoed it, levelled it, sowed some late borlottis and stuck some canes round it to contain the beans when they are growing. This is in a bed with brassicas, onions for seed saving only [rare italian red onions], winter squashes, courgettes, beetroots and other dwarf beans.

As long as you don't replace like with like; and you get to know your veg groups [swede belongs to brassicas for example, not roots], then a potager style can work - if you want it to.

[willowman]

Zazen, I think you've sorted me out.
Basically, I have to stop worrying so much about what goes where and when and just plant things.
I only have a small plot, divided into 4 areas. Don't have a lot of success with many plants, because I run my own business and time is tight so care and attention is sometimes lacking (I usually forget to water).
So I will treat each small area separately, try to rotate the bulk crops on each, but not worry too much if I get things in the wrong order. It's not the end of the world if it goes wrong, and something might grow anyway.
Many thanks.

[IanYORK]

To the newbie:  You will have problems with planting brassicas in the same bed year on year.  You might get away with it for a few years, but eventually you will have problems.  In your case, if you do not want to grow anything else, you should have a "rest year".  That should help.   

[zazen999]

I think the thing with crop rotation is to learn the rules, then break them. Much as life in general. 

[gillie]

Conventional rotations are very rigid.  They assume you will grow the same amounts of the same crop every year so that, for example, the amounts of space devoted to potatoes must equal the amount of space devoted to brassicas or whatever and there is little room for adjustment or experimentation. 

This does not suit me.  I don't grow potatoes any more, and very few brassicas so conventional rotations don't work.  However I do try not to grow the same thing in the same place two years running, so the 'carrot cage' is moved to a different spot, as is my 'salad frame', bean, courgette/squash patches and so forth.  I reckon if I can remember what I have been doing  I can manage not to grow the same thing in the same place for at least six years.

Cheers,

Gillie

[lisajpickering]

As a new plot holder, I have no idea what problems may have been encountered by my predecessors. 

I'm getting potatoes sprouting up all over the plot - clearly potatoes have been grown in all beds at some point with tubers getting missed.  Theoretically, does this mean I should not grow potatoes coz they've obviously been growing there for years?  Well, I'm growing potatoes so you can guess what I think of the theory!

I don't know whether my predecessors encountered diseases.  Suppose they did - if they have a lifespan of 10 years average, its likely still there.  I cannot avoid it if I don't know about it. 

I don't know where brassicas were last grown - so I just picked a bed at random. 

My point is that sometimes we can do very little to avoid these problems - hope has as much to do with it as rotation.

[gillie]

It is common to find potatoes growing a second year from tubers that were accidentally left in.  They are called volunteers. 

If you plant a new crop in the same place the following year you will  not know whether you are harvesting from the seed you planted or from volunteers.  This means there will be a build up of diseases from the old stock. 

Of all the crops we grow I think that potatoes are the one most in need of rotation and that you should not plant them until you have got rid of all volunteers.

Gillie

[zazen999]

Lisa - just pull out all the volunteer potatoes, and the ones that you get next year from the potatoes that you miss this year - I've got some soil that had potatoes in it 3 summers ago and I'm still pulling volunteers out even though it hasn't had potatoes in it at all since.

You are right, in a new plot you have no idea what was in there last, but try and read the soil and see if you  can figure anything out [volunteers are one way, self sown seedlings are another]....but the main thing is to keep a keen eye on all your crops, and if you have anything nasty, then deal with it in the way that you garden [by relaxing beds if they need them], or organically if that's the way you garden, or not-organically if that's the way you do things.

I garden totally organically, and use no manure just home made compost.....apart from one thing, which is spraying my potatoes with Dithane to stop/hold off blight. I figure that if I lost the main portion of potatoes then I'd have to buy them - and the bought ones are all sprayed so I'm just kidding myself into a false send of organicness if I stick 100% rigidly to the principles.....so I spray as little as I can [only once this year 2 weeks ago after a Smith Period alert], and they are getting to the stage of dying back on their own now anyway so fingers crossed.

I have found that if one plant in my system gets something bad, I can whip it out or treat it and often the plants nearby don't get it.....as the mix and match approach means not many are actually touching or are so close that any bugs/disease travels across. Potatoes are the obvious example as they ARE grown in bulk together. My other main issue is cabbage whites on brassicas, and I grow nasturtiums around the plot and they seem to prefer the nasturtiums; and a chilli and garlic spray stays in my shed for regular fending off if they do stray onto the odd brassica.

[aelf]

rotations work and have done for hundreds of years for all the good reasons stated above. But it appeals most to me because it's such a neat system! You only need to add your collected compost to one bed (spuds) and over the next 3 years your other rotations benefit in different ways as the soil from that origional spud bed matures and develops, then you start over again.

Also, there is no need to panic if you have an area with no plants in it after you harvest - think of it as 'resting the soil' til next year, or sow some green manure to give the soil a bit of a boost.

And yes, you can break the rotation rules if you want, after all, it's your plot and it's not life and death!