[galen]

Totally agree mumofstig, we all know how many contrasting answers we find on here 

[oldbean]

Although I can not  disagree with anything said in what you have quoted, these are studies from the  80s / 90s and are here being quoted in an article from 2000. These results may have been seen in California, New Zealand and Canada back then, may be things have changed in the past 9 years ?

Mmmm......... has it changed? 2005 2009 doesn't look as though it has.

[blackbob]

our whole enviroment is full of dangers and toxic substances.plants themselves produce vast amounts of toxins,some harmful to humans and some not.

[oldbean]

Do these toxic plants spray themselves around the world?

[blackbob]

Do these toxic plants spray themselves around the world?

i wouldn't say spray themselves around the world.but they have made an excellent job of colonising most of it.
whether MONSANTO are right or wrong i dont know,but i feel there is definately an agenda against them.

[Kristen]

"I wondered how quickly someone would bring this up. "

I started to answer when the link was first posted, but I deleted my reply because I felt it was likely to deteriorate into a my-way v. your-way slanging match.

If I search for "Roundup is bad" on google I get N million hits.  If I search for "Roundup is good" I get another N million hits.

The first link posted is, as has already been pointed out, 9 years old. It is from a site that is trying to sell its products to folk who want to be Organic. Its an Email from someone who's credentials aren't really clear, and the link to his site doesn't work. I could spend more time trying to track him down and see how authentic the claims are ... but as you might expect I didn't spend any more time on it. There are also no citations. On that basis, for me, I deem it not authoritative and as such it carries zero weight. I could make a web site tomorrow calls RoundupSucks.com, or whatever, and write whatever I wish ...

Both your links are to the Institute of Science in Society.  I've never heard of them, have you?  If they are a robust scientific institution why do they need Google Ads to support their site? (Which rather unfortunately offered me to buy Roundup from Choiceful at £12.68 for 1.5L).  They say they are a not-for-profit donation-funded site, but the majority of the articles seem to be written by Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, so my conclusion is that its a rant site for a GM opponent (nothing wrong with that, just not the hard scientific evidence that would sway me).

I have read up about Roundup and Glyphosate because I do use it here to clear new ground. I have based my opinion on the Wikipedia article on Roundup and Glyphosate (not infallible, of course, but people are free to edit the page For and Against) and information that I have read on the Soil Association website

There was also mention of "trying to be organic" or using Roundup to clear the plot and then no chemicals thereafter allowed you to be Organic.

IMHO Organic is a much abused word.  Manure was sold in bags last year labelled as "Organic" but contained aminopyralid, and people who used it lost their crops.  When they challenged the supplier the answer was something vague about the company's practices and their wish to promote organic ... All Hogwash!, but the bottom line is that they just put the word "Organic" on their bags to make them sell. "Certified by the Soil Association", or whatever the correct wording is, or some similar body, is the only thing that will make something demonstrably Organic.

The Soil Association don't assist "home growers", but their FAQ provides links to a number of Suppliers and also these organisations:

http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/ (useful)
http://www.organicgardeningmagazine.co.uk/ (Magazine's website)

and this

http://www.angliangardener.co.uk/toc.htm

which TBH I am extremely sceptical about - lots of articles about using Glyphosate to clear plots etc., nothing about it being un-organic, nor anything about it being harmful, and it seems an unlikely site for the Soil Association to be linking too.

[mickwood]

Hmmm...well...what a debate eh? 

As the OP, I'd just like to add in 'for and against' arguements will go on forever. If things in life were clear cut most of the colour of discovery would be gone from the world.

My use of the word 'organic' was not meant as a definition but rather as a state of mind and an approach. That is, for me to grow vegetables from scratch working with nature rather than against it. Now, for me, to grow this year I need help (Due to size of plot, condition, rubbish etc on plot, time restrictions, veg sowing times etc etc) and roundup is one solution, not perfect but then nothing in this world ever is.

At the moment I buy veg from supermarkets, they spray they pollute etc etc, so using roundup will allow me to grow my veg and stop buying from them. The next step will be to stop using the spray and growing veg without chemicals (not withstanding the chemical in the atmosphere arguement...ie. can we 'really' be organic? acid rain etc).

So, I'm happy in my conscience to use it as it provides a stepping stone to becoming more self sufficient 

Thanks guys nd gals XXX

[blackbob]

Hmmm...well...what a debate eh? 

As the OP, I'd just like to add in 'for and against' arguements will go on forever. If things in life were clear cut most of the colour of discovery would be gone from the world.

My use of the word 'organic' was not meant as a definition but rather as a state of mind and an approach. That is, for me to grow vegetables from scratch working with nature rather than against it. Now, for me, to grow this year I need help (Due to size of plot, condition, rubbish etc on plot, time restrictions, veg sowing times etc etc) and roundup is one solution, not perfect but then nothing in this world ever is.

At the moment I buy veg from supermarkets, they spray they pollute etc etc, so using roundup will allow me to grow my veg and stop buying from them. The next step will be to stop using the spray and growing veg without chemicals (not withstanding the chemical in the atmosphere arguement...ie. can we 'really' be organic? acid rain etc).

So, I'm happy in my conscience to use it as it provides a stepping stone to becoming more self sufficient 

Thanks guys nd gals XXX

if anyone has feelings of guilt by using roundup.i suggest leaving a small area of your plot to mother nature.a small logpile and a bit of rough left for nature helps ease the guilt lol.

[Carol]

I think everyone has to decide what's right for them. 

I've read a lot around the subject of roundup - and would prefer not to line the pockets of Monsanto.

I started off thinking I would never use ANY weedkiller, and for the most part I haven't - except to get rid of the bindweed and nettles which were intertwined with the established fruit bushes I inherited with my plot. (Didn't want to dig up the fruit bushes as well). 

I can't remember what the stuff was called, but it did have glyphosate in it, so I suppose ultimately it came from Monsanto.

BUT - I took on my plot in the winter when I couldn't have planted stuff anyway.

If the ten days it takes to work are also ten days when you could visit the plot and dig, you could do it by hand; but most people don't have the luxury of 10 consecutive days to do nothing but work on the lottie do they?

Once the initial clearing is done it's relatively easy to keep on top of the new weeds without chemicals - even working full time as I do.

Good luck whichever way you go!

Carol.

[Rangerkris]

Hmmm...well...what a debate eh? 

As the OP, I'd just like to add in 'for and against' arguements will go on forever. If things in life were clear cut most of the colour of discovery would be gone from the world.

My use of the word 'organic' was not meant as a definition but rather as a state of mind and an approach. That is, for me to grow vegetables from scratch working with nature rather than against it. Now, for me, to grow this year I need help (Due to size of plot, condition, rubbish etc on plot, time restrictions, veg sowing times etc etc) and roundup is one solution, not perfect but then nothing in this world ever is.

At the moment I buy veg from supermarkets, they spray they pollute etc etc, so using roundup will allow me to grow my veg and stop buying from them. The next step will be to stop using the spray and growing veg without chemicals (not withstanding the chemical in the atmosphere arguement...ie. can we 'really' be organic? acid rain etc).

So, I'm happy in my conscience to use it as it provides a stepping stone to becoming more self sufficient 

Thanks guys nd gals XXX

if anyone has feelings of guilt by using roundup.i suggest leaving a small area of your plot to mother nature.a small logpile and a bit of rough left for nature helps ease the guilt lol.

#


Im thinking im going to have to do this anyhow as there are so many slowworms on my plot its unreal i lifted a tarp yesterday and found about 12 straight of and then some babies they are every where.  Im thinking leave an area for them to do there thing and i will feel much better.  

[blackbob]

Hmmm...well...what a debate eh? 

As the OP, I'd just like to add in 'for and against' arguements will go on forever. If things in life were clear cut most of the colour of discovery would be gone from the world.

My use of the word 'organic' was not meant as a definition but rather as a state of mind and an approach. That is, for me to grow vegetables from scratch working with nature rather than against it. Now, for me, to grow this year I need help (Due to size of plot, condition, rubbish etc on plot, time restrictions, veg sowing times etc etc) and roundup is one solution, not perfect but then nothing in this world ever is.

At the moment I buy veg from supermarkets, they spray they pollute etc etc, so using roundup will allow me to grow my veg and stop buying from them. The next step will be to stop using the spray and growing veg without chemicals (not withstanding the chemical in the atmosphere arguement...ie. can we 'really' be organic? acid rain etc).

So, I'm happy in my conscience to use it as it provides a stepping stone to becoming more self sufficient 

Thanks guys nd gals XXX

if anyone has feelings of guilt by using roundup.i suggest leaving a small area of your plot to mother nature.a small logpile and a bit of rough left for nature helps ease the guilt lol.

#


Im thinking im going to have to do this anyhow as there are so many slowworms on my plot its unreal i lifted a tarp yesterday and found about 12 straight of and then some babies they are every where.  Im thinking leave an area for them to do there thing and i will feel much better.  

yes go for it,over the years iv'e turned more and more of my growing area back over to nature.if done with a bit of foresight it can be a beautiful addition to the garden.i started with a small pond and now have 3.
a fantastic addition to any veg garden,never used slug pellets for years now.the frogs do it for me.its superb watching the swallows skim the top of the pond for a drink.
after 27 years i finally have my garden just as i always wanted it.iv'e cut right back on the amount of veg i grow and now prefer to just sit and enjoy my surroundings.
isn't this a great hobby we all have.

[Yorkie]

A managed wildlife area will bring real benefits to the plot in the sense of friendly predators etc, attracting bees, etc etc.

You just need to make sure it doesn't look 'uncultivated' to the extent that you get into trouble for abandoning your plot 

[SG6]

The original question was "Using Roundup".
Owing to the way that certain things polarise people it is now 2 sides either for using it or against using it.

If people want to remain pesticide and herbicide free then great I hope that all goes well and that the crops are good. If you want to use chemicals then do it responsibly.

Whoever started this, probably innocent and reasonable request for information, now has advice from people that have experienced roundup and their replies appear sensible.

Having read this it would seem that the answer to the question is:
One or two applications is the expected amount, the second application being at a 2-3 week interval if required.
Apply roundup sensibly and avoid any spray drifting by using a watering can, at the required concentrartion, or do it carefully on a calm day.
After that it is digging and then the veg or whatever when p[lanted will obviously prevent further usage.

So it will not be several times a year every year. Well not unless the growth etc is allowed to continually grow back. In which case someone from the organic following has full permission to vist you and insert a dibber where the sun don't shine.

That appears to be the answer to the question whether you are organic or not.

Cannot think of anyone on this forum who has advocated perpetual spraying for for any and every possible complication.

[blackbob]

A managed wildlife area will bring real benefits to the plot in the sense of friendly predators etc, attracting bees, etc etc.

You just need to make sure it doesn't look 'uncultivated' to the extent that you get into trouble for abandoning your plot 

i forgot about that Yorkie,i imagine some garden societies may have strict rules regarding set aside lol.
i'm pleased i dont have to justify my actions to anyone.

[Gardenmunkey]

Oh dear, I should hang my head in shame ....... or join a round-up user group for therapy!

I used round-up last year to help clear half my plot. Being novice alloymenteers, me and other half couldn't manage all the plot so I used round-up (on the advice of a very exerienced chap) to kill of all the existing weeds before covering the area with weedmat.

On the upside, I've not had to use any weedkiller this year and we are now using the full plot which is mostly weed free. There is some twitch weed in the hedge at the end, but it's under control at the moment and it's given us the incentive to push on and to be honest, I'm enjoying the plot more this year rather than suffering the frustartions of last year.

I think that used at the right time and for the right reasons, it isn't a problem.