[aligemini]

 Hi I'm new here 

But would like your help Please.

My Husband and I took on our Allotment Dec 1st 2008. We were very lucky and had the choice of 2 plots, we chose the one in the corner. Two sides have trees round and in the corner is a natural pond - which the kids love and we are hoping to turn into a wildlife pond eventually. 

 The problem is 3/4's of the plot has hardly any topsoil, 1/2 a spades depth at most down to 2 - 3 inches at worst,  which the Perennial weeds live in before they hit clay. - By clay I mean the type you could make models out of like my children have.    

so my question is How would you tackle this problem please ?  - I'm open to all ideas.

PS. The only weeds I can identify are :- Couch grass, creeping Buttercup, Dock leaves,nettles and possibly  rag wort but i need to double check that one.

Looking forward to hearing all your suggestions.

Cheers Aligem.

[Stree]

Lots of digging, incorporating sand straw and manure into it at the same time. Clay is very nutrient rich and once roots get established in clay they do very well. This would be useful for shrubs and bush varieties but not much use for annual crops..
Rhubarb does well on clay, and many fruit bushes.
For quicker results with say salad crops and annuals you could introduce raised beds

[Trillium]

First off, you'll need to dig out as much of those weeds as possible, and get every tiny bit of roots. If its too large an area to weed at once, cover the 'later' areas with lots of cardboard to smother the weeds.
Sounds like raised beds are your best option. cultivate the good soil you have, decide on bed locations and sizes, and scoop good stuff from the proposed paths onto the bed areas to raise those heights a bit more. You'll need loads of compost, old manure, shredded leaves or straw, old grow bag contents, anything that will add humus to the soil areas and work it all in along with bonemeal and a bit of lime.
Its crucial to all future success to put the work into sorting out the soil first. That's not the part eager newbies want to hear but its the regular advice of older gardeners who went through it all.

check these for helpful info. This fellow's beds were done just as I explained above, the paths are lined with chippings or slabs to compensate for their lower height from soil removal to the beds. It's his 2nd year. The 2nd video is his plot over a year afterwards, his 3rd yr on the plot.

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[aligemini]

Lots of digging, incorporating sand straw and manure into it at the same time. Clay is very nutrient rich and once roots get established in clay they do very well. This would be useful for shrubs and bush varieties but not much use for annual crops..
Rhubarb does well on clay, and many fruit bushes.
For quicker results with say salad crops and annuals you could introduce raised beds

thanks stree for your quick reply 

I was thinking raised beds too - at least for the worst part of it in the middle. I have been digging where I can but everytime I dig in the worst parts I dig up clay    Is clay still good ? even if it sub soil which is what i'm thinking. 

[Trillium]

A lot of us have clay and we have successful gardens. Its physically hard to work with but does contain a lot of nutrients as well as moisture. I'd rather have clay than sandy soil. You'll just have to persevere over the years with adding humus and working it and eventually it will be ideal soil. In my clay soil I draw the line at digging up the pale yellowish stuff which is real brick making stuff and simply find more good stuff to dump on top.

[aligemini]

First off, you'll need to dig out as much of those weeds as possible, and get every tiny bit of roots. If its too large an area to weed at once, cover the 'later' areas with lots of cardboard to smother the weeds.
Sounds like raised beds are your best option. cultivate the good soil you have, decide on bed locations and sizes, and scoop good stuff from the proposed paths onto the bed areas to raise those heights a bit more. You'll need loads of compost, old manure, shredded leaves or straw, old grow bag contents, anything that will add humus to the soil areas and work it all in along with bonemeal and a bit of lime.
Its crucial to all future success to put the work into sorting out the soil first. That's not the part eager newbies want to hear but its the regular advice of older gardeners who went through it all.

check these for helpful info. This fellow's beds were done just as I explained above, the paths are lined with chippings or slabs to compensate for their lower height from soil removal to the beds. It's his 2nd year. The 2nd video is his plot over a year afterwards, his 3rd yr on the plot.

Not a valid youtube URL
N0m5Qt1iprofeature=related

Thanks Trillium

It's just as i thought and have been very slowly digging out the weeds - weather permitting - have covered some too with plastic but it hasn't made much difference yet. We've also laid a couple of paths and used the soil from them to fill the dips.

Would you or anyone consider weed killing the weeds and digging them in that way I wouldn't lose anymore topsoil.   Or could I just pile on manure, compost topsoil etc to smother the weeds ? Or will they find a way back up to the top.?

[Trillium]

To chemically kill weeds, there has to be active green growth, particularly with Roundup type products. I admit to using it when I can't get ahead of the weeds but some are so pernicious that I've had to spray them 3 separate times to finish them off, like peppermint directly planted in the veg garden by previous owner. Boy, that was rampant stuff! If possible, you can spray and then cover with cardboard which seems to work better than black plastic but they all take a bit of time.

Don't bother trying to smother weeds with manure, topsoil, etc - it will only encourage them to greater size and width. I have had some luck with masses of old straw; it weakens the whole plant which will easily pull out after loosening with a garden fork. Again, you need time.

[aligemini]

A lot of us have clay and we have successful gardens. Its physically hard to work with but does contain a lot of nutrients as well as moisture. I'd rather have clay than sandy soil. You'll just have to persevere over the years with adding humus and working it and eventually it will be ideal soil. In my clay soil I draw the line at digging up the pale yellowish stuff which is real brick making stuff and simply find more good stuff to dump on top.

I forgot to say before thanks for the links, haven't looked at them yet, but will do for sure.

Clay sure is hard work and my back felt it today    Strange thing is I only live 10 mins walk away from the allotment and my back garden is sandy    Amazing how different it can be in such a short distance.

[aligemini]

To chemically kill weeds, there has to be active green growth, particularly with Roundup type products. I admit to using it when I can't get ahead of the weeds but some are so pernicious that I've had to spray them 3 separate times to finish them off, like peppermint directly planted in the veg garden by previous owner. Boy, that was rampant stuff! If possible, you can spray and then cover with cardboard which seems to work better than black plastic but they all take a bit of time.

Don't bother trying to smother weeds with manure, topsoil, etc - it will only encourage them to greater size and width. I have had some luck with masses of old straw; it weakens the whole plant which will easily pull out after loosening with a garden fork. Again, you need time.

Haven't had the pleasure of Peppermint but have dug out and sieved ground elder from an old garden - no fun.

I didn't think I could smother weeds with manure etc but it was worth a thought. Really don't want to go down the weed kill path but hubby would like it all ready for planting this year. Not sure i can convince him with cardboard either. - think I better keep digging.

Thank you for all your help tonight. AG.

[aligemini]

First off, you'll need to dig out as much of those weeds as possible, and get every tiny bit of roots. If its too large an area to weed at once, cover the 'later' areas with lots of cardboard to smother the weeds.
Sounds like raised beds are your best option. cultivate the good soil you have, decide on bed locations and sizes, and scoop good stuff from the proposed paths onto the bed areas to raise those heights a bit more. You'll need loads of compost, old manure, shredded leaves or straw, old grow bag contents, anything that will add humus to the soil areas and work it all in along with bonemeal and a bit of lime.
Its crucial to all future success to put the work into sorting out the soil first. That's not the part eager newbies want to hear but its the regular advice of older gardeners who went through it all.

check these for helpful info. This fellow's beds were done just as I explained above, the paths are lined with chippings or slabs to compensate for their lower height from soil removal to the beds. It's his 2nd year. The 2nd video is his plot over a year afterwards, his 3rd yr on the plot.

Not a valid youtube URL
N0m5Qt1iprofeature=related

Trillium thanks for those links i have just looked at them - wow - will show hubby tomorrow.

Off to bed now. AG.

[Mike.white]

Those links are very good - learnt a few bits watching them - we should all have a go doing this!!

[woodburner]

Most places have about a foot of topsoil, from years of ploughing. I'm wondering if someone has stripped off the turf to get rid of the weeds at some time, but didn't think to keep it. (Best case scenario is you have a heap of rotted down turf somewhere on the plot.) Do you know what the land was before it was made over to allotments?

Clay makes really good soil, but it takes many, many years and there's not a lot can be done to speed up the process.
Most plant roots hate pure clay. They just can't get into it. Without humus in it, there's nothing for worms or bacteria to eat, so they don't go into it either. Physically breaking it up, as in double digging, helps with drainage, but sill leaves the clay lumps individually impenetrable. Usually I advise against adding manure/compost to subsoils clay, as it's usually too deep to benefit the plants, and the worms don't like going too deep either, but with your plot having so little topsoil, it won't be too far down at all. :? The compost manure has at least two actions on the clay, firstly, it physically stops the lumps from sticking back together, secondly it provides food for the worms, and their movements help mix up the humus and the subsoil on a more minute level.
Normally for double digging, you'd dig a trench the depth of your spade, but in your case that would mix up the subsoil with the topsoil, so just dig down to the subsoil, (put the topsoil in a barrow or on a tarp) shove a load of manure or compost, (or whatever you can get!) and fork it into the clay at the bottom of the trench. Then dig another trench alongside the first, and put the topsoil from that into the first. Put manure or whatever into the bootom of the new trench and so on, across the plot, finally filling in the last trench with the topsoil from the first.
The other thing you can do is to grow plants whose roots can penetrate the clay, buckwheat and field beans are both reputed to do this, so I would think that broad beans would too.
Buckwheat and field beans are green manures, so if you can't get manure or compost in sufficient quantity, this is definitly the way to go. HTH

[Parsnip]

Wow, I've just had a look at those clips Trillium, what a difference a few months make!!! i'm very impressed, he's worked really hard.

[strangerachael]

I've just looked at that youtube clip - BLIMEY!!!!! However much time and money must have gone into that? He is justifiably very pleased with himself isn't he?

[Trillium]

If you check out this page, you'll find what the video chap had to do to get his plot workable. The first season it was a real shambles but with determination and planning, he changed it to something incredible in 3 yrs. He also discusses his costs, which is not for everyone, but definitely has lots of ideas to borrow from. I'm making the compost bins and adding a few raised beds with the protective netting.

http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allaboutallotments1_homepage.html

Also, our John, site owner, had to sort waterlogging problems in one of his plots by doing raised beds. If you check through some of the diary entries, possibly 2007 you'll probably find his comments and pix.