Root problems.

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Russell Atterbury

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Root problems.
« on: August 11, 2023, 14:28 »
Well, lots of root problems. Bindweed massively invading. Coarse grass roots that you would have to see to believe. And tree roots that must be entering my plot from neighboring ones. This is all in a plot that has very light soil that can be drowned with rain one day and 2/3 days later is more or less dry to a few inches down. I don't think it helps that my plot is raised by a good bit above the one next door. I understand that getting plenty of organic matter dug in helps with water retention, but it's daunting to think about the amount for a full plot. So my plan for next year, (although not keen on it), is to use farm grade roundup in spring to knock some of the weed back, then sheet it over, probably for the rest of the year. I have a separate 1/2 plot to cultivate anyway, and if I choose to grow on a little patch of the problem ground then maybe I won't treat that with chemical. It would be interesting for me to get the lowdown from you good folk on how you would go about the next couple of years on said rooty ground.

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Kleftiwallah

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2023, 15:14 »
Good afternoon Russell,  A gurt big block of text "as you have wrote" is very difficult to read.  Would you be a sport and bung in a couple of paragraphs?

Pretty please.  Cheers,  Tony.
I may be growing OLD, but I refuse to grow UP !

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Russell Atterbury

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2023, 15:54 »
Good afternoon Russell,  A gurt big block of text "as you have wrote" is very difficult to read.  Would you be a sport and bung in a couple of paragraphs?

Pretty please.  Cheers,  Tony.
Paragraphs might be above my schooling grade kleftiwallah. And many people over the years have remarked how I don't make a lot of sense anyway. Hopefully someone can dredge through my text and make a useful remark or two. I haven't been let down so far on our wonderful site.

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mumofstig

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2023, 20:42 »
You could use glyphosate, but I wouldn't cover the plot after spraying. Without a cover, when the weeds start to regrow, which inevitable they will, in some places, then you can see where you need a 2nd application.
Any area that do remain weed-free, you can plant into, as long as you follow the guidelines in the label instructions.
Tree roots will be an ongoing problem, as they will continue to grow as wide as the trees canopy. I once applied glyphosate and then made raised beds because of the roots from next-door's tree, but the roots still just grew up through the bed. Good luck!

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Russell Atterbury

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2023, 07:58 »
Thanks again mumofstig. So I will take on board your advice to not cover after the first spray. The odd thing about the tree roots after considering your remark, is that the ones stretching into my plot are already much wider than any tree canopy nearby. They are all fruit trees by the way. I did take a couple of photo's to post but the site won't upload them because of being too large a file. Anyway, from these roots a new leafing shoot has emerged to about a foot tall, so I have to do something about it. I am starting to be of an opinion that fruit trees (orchards) are detrimental to neighboring vegetable plots, and have heard that some associations don't allow them on site.

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coldandwindy

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2023, 08:41 »
Don't be daunted- divide it up! :D
I'd put a post in the centre & make four paths out from it.

You talk as if you have enough ground cover sheets for the whole plot, so I'm going to assume that. (They're the sort that let air through, yes? They need to be or they'll damage the soil.)
Cover it all but in such a way that you can uncover a quarter when you like- with the joins in the cover along the paths.

Pick the least awful quarter. When the cover has killed all the top growth so that you can see the wood for the trees, clear it as much as you can by hand over a few weeks, a bit at a time when you have half an hour; each time re-covering it when you go home. When its as good as you can get it put all the manure you can find on that quarter, cover it again & go home smug.

Next spring plant potatoes in your clear quarter & gradually, as time allows, start clearing the next. Same as last time- cover when you're not there so it doesn't go backwards in between.

Next winter put a bit of lime on quarter one and all the manure you have on quarter two. Then recover them until they're needed. In spring plant potatoes in the new quarter & brassicas in last years' .
You get the idea? You'd have a four year rotation in mind for my idea but if your dividing up skills are better than mine it could be five, or whatever you prefer.

I did this with a piece of very neglected farmer's field that was as hard as concrete and had more weeds than grass. It is a very productive plot now but I still cover any beds I'm not using over winter otherwise it produces buttercups when I'm not looking. The covers allow you not to panic because one bit isn't creeping up on you from behind while you're working away on another! :lol:

Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Windy.


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Russell Atterbury

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2023, 13:45 »
Great reply c&w. It makes a lot of sense to me. But like all things, I suppose in practice, hard work gets you through. I have enough time to carry out the plan, and by having only a quarter plot to cultivate at first gives me scope to decide on exactly how i'd like my plot to end up. Manure is an issue for us here, or the expense of it is. But I collect grass clippings from 3 friends with decent sized lawns, so I can substitute with that.

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Subversive_plot

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2023, 16:21 »
Good afternoon Russell,  A gurt big block of text "as you have wrote" is very difficult to read.  Would you be a sport and bung in a couple of paragraphs?

Pretty please.  Cheers,  Tony.

@Kleftiwallah:  If you find a gurt big block of text (only ten lines long) very difficult to read, as you have wrote, perhaps you could be a good sport and bung in a nap after reading the first five lines, and before you read the next five lines? Pretty please? 

We all have our different styles of writing, please be tolerant and respectful of other members different styles of posting. The forums are a place for gardeners to ask and answer questions; grammar nannies are really not necessary.

Personally, I found Russell Atterbury's original post clearly stated the problems he faces, and the opinions he was asking for. I will try to offer some gardening suggestions in reply.

@Russell Atterbury

You have already received some good advice from mumofstig and coldandwindy regarding general weed control.  I could offer other options, but the advice you received should do the trick, so I won't muddy the water with additional options. 

Regarding the tree roots, I have similar problems in my home garden, but the tree roots are coming from pine, elm, etc. in woods that are very close to the garden beds.  My suggestion in your allotment is to dig a narrow trench outside your growing beds but as close to the trees as possible. The trench should extend at least as deep as your "plow depth" in your vegetable beds, deeper if you can. When you come to tree roots, cut them off. Tools such as heavy loppers, axe or hatchet, machete, or a digging bar with a blade are good options for root cutting.  This is certainly work that is best done when the weather is cool!

If you can get extra heavy polythene sheet (not weed control fabric) and can work it down to the depth of the trench, it may help deter roots from penetrating back into your vegetable beds.  You may still need to repeat the process every few years.

Regarding water retention by your soil:  As a soil forms over a long period of time, clay tends to move lower in the soil profile. While you have a trench open in your soil, see if you can detect an increase in clay with depth (often seen within the first foot below the soil surface). I've found that I can greatly improve water retention by turning the soil over as deeply as I can to work more clay into the surface soil.  A little clay is not a bad thing, as you can't have a good loamy soil without some clay in it.

Finally, those grass clippings you mentioned would be a good mulch to place on the soil where crops are already growing. I mulch heavily with grass clippings around squash, peppers, beans, etc.  It keeps the weeds down, and keeps soil moisture in the soil. 

Good luck to you!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 17:02 by Subversive_plot »
"Somewhere between right and wrong, there is a garden. I will meet you there."~ Rumi

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Russell Atterbury

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Re: Root problems.
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2023, 09:15 »
You're the man Subversive. Yes I will check out the plausibility of trying  a trench around the area with fruit tree root problems. I suppose it will come down to checking it out with the association. I have this year dug out a hazelnut bush/tree, that was of no use on the plot. So I know that the light soil runs to a depth of about 12" at most, and below that seems to be nothing but soft high grade bricklaying sand. So the roots probably went deeper than most nut would. And this year I did mulch my potato with clippings, and like you say it really helps to keep moisture in. It's something of a conundrum as to compost or mulch with them. Unfortunately the clippings will stop at just about the same time as the need for mulching does, and requiring large amounts of compost throws a spanner in the works. I'm not one to value spending the high cost of buying commercially.


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