Getting bread to rise.

  • 77 Replies
  • 13595 Views
*

Wellington

  • Experienced Member
  • ***
  • Location: East Midlands
  • 132
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2020, 10:28 »
I’m sorry this is so frustrating for you, I think it’s often made very complex (especially with sourdough).

My dad was a baker, so I grew up making vast quantities of the stuff!  As a result I am very lazy and slapdash about it, but here is what I do.

Buy good flour. It must be strong, and unless you want very dense bread, at least half white. If you want wholemeal start with half and half white and wholemeal and up the wholemeal gradually until you get the texture and taste you like. Full wholemeal is too dense for many people.  I buy mine from Wessex Mill (who are partially open for orders atm) and handily sell half and half, and have had reasonable results with Waitrose’s, but rubbish results with doves farm.

Don’t put sugar in it.

Don’t rush it.

Don’t keep it too warm.

Eat it the day you make it, or freeze it. It really doesn’t keep.

I make mine in the bread maker every Friday, on the pizza dough setting, which takes 45 minutes. This is a fast mix, bit of a rest, bashing good knead, first rise for half an hour or so and then I take it out for a squash-and-shape. I often end up doing squash and shape twice because I am not ready when it is. I usually shape into rolls and and then I put it the fridge all night. Yes, really.

When I get up on Saturday morning. Or perhaps after lunch. Or sometimes even when we get in from somewhere on Saturday night, I fling it straight into a hot oven for fifteen minutes. Then I put them in the freezer and nuke them for one minute when I want one.

I think the problem with your bread is a firstly sugar. Even a little makes bread denser. I know it’s counter-intuitive, but my bread became much fluffier without it, instantly, when I stopped adding it on the miller’s recommendation. Secondly, I think you are proving it much too warm. Again, contrary to popular belief, you don’t need a warm place to prove bread. It will prove faster in a warm place, but this isn’t a good thing. Firstly, you get fewer, bigger air pockets, which make denser bread (you want a lot of little ones) and secondly (and I think this is your main issue) as the air bubbles produced by the yeast get bigger, the dough around it gets thinner (think ballon). So when it’s baked it can’t support the bubble and collapses. I think this is what is happening to your bread. Sugar makes this worse, because it makes the yeast act faster. 

You can prove bread in a warm place, but it takes more skill to find the sweet spot between enough rising so there is air, and too much when it collapses. In a very warm place it can be just a couple of minutes and vary enormously between houses, summer and winter. In the fridge, it’ll be hours and hours and pretty constant. Hence my lazy Saturday mornings.

It is possible that your flour is a bit duff (this varies year to year, Miller to miller, wheat to wheat and so on) or that your yeast is a bit duff (but it’s much tougher than most people think) so start with flour. It’s also possible that you are not kneading enough (kneading creates strength in the bread) or that your dough is too wet (which means it can’t hold its structure well. If it sticks to you a lot, it’s too wet) or too dry (when it would be too stiff to rise. It should be soft, and make you want sink your fingers into it, and it should stick a little). I don’t think it’s salt. Salt does indeed impede yeast action, but you are getting rise and then a sink, so your yeast is working.

My recipe for good measure

400g Wessex Mill Strong White Bread Flour (or 200g White, 200g wholemeal)
1 tsp of salt
A slosh of olive oil (About two tablespoons. Amount not crucial. Or any type of oil. Or a chunk of butter. Whatever)
A dessert spoon of yeast (I keep a measure in the yeast jar and thought it was a tablespoon for years!)
240ml of water

Mix it all together, until it makes a soft dough.  Then knead it.  It should feel ‘nice’ - pliable and squishy, but not too sticky. Softer than playdoh or biscuit dough and sort of springy. Leave it around in the kitchen covered with a tea towel for half an hour or so. It should look puffy and floofy. (Don’t worry about ‘doubling’ that’s crazy hard to estimate in a bowl!)  Give it a quick squish around to make it like it was before, then put it into its tin, or shape into rolls (eight is a good size for this mix) or a round (whatever. My kid makes dolphins and plaits and alsorts) on a baking tray, cover with a tea towel and leave in the fridge overnight.

In the morning, get the oven up to 180°C (or 200 for a non fan, maybe. It’s not critical, but don’t put it into a cold oven)  take off the tea towel and bake for fifteen minutes for rolls (I don’t know how long a loaf would take, I haven't made one for years. I can certainly try, if you’d like). When they start to brown, take them out and tap the bottom. It should feel dry and sound slightly hollow)

Eat it that day, it won’t keep overnight (it will be ok for toast, but it’s so good when you first make it you won’t want to eat day old bread anymore. Shape and bake it in quantities that you eat it in, or freeze it in slices if you really like slices. It’s better frozen as rolls though. They are quite soft enough for sandwiches and lovely with soup.

I would not be adverse to doing a video, for people who really like visual learning, if people think it would help?  It looks an awful lot written down! 

I’m not qualified to comment on sourdough. I made it once, and it took days and days of faffing around feeding starters and halving the mix and waiting and so on, and the bread was EXACTLY the same at the stuff I had been making in 45 minutes every Friday for years. So I didn’t bother again. I concluded that the reason people like sourdough is that bread needs time to develop flavour. Mine already had it, so it wasn’t any better.

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2020, 15:13 »
Weavingryphon I think maybe you would be better to master 1 recipe with just 1 type of flour probably white strong flour, I certainly think you need to utilise your oven fr the proving stages initially. Once you are happy with what you are producing then it would be time to experiment with other flours & recipes.

I don't disagree with that, but I haven't been able to get the normal powdered yeast to replace the guilty, not quite up to having a flour party that's living in the tin in my kitchen. So if I want to bake bread, I need to go the sourdough way. I have some of the fresh yeast which I am reading up on using now (25%-50%  more than dried depending on who you read), but I would like a back up.

You can add yeast to sourdough mix if you’re still having issues? As I thought you’d given up on sourdough?

As I said still have no yeast to make yeasted bread. There hasn't been yeast in the shops since the panic buying started, so unless I cultivate it the sourdough way, I can't have yeasted bread.

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2020, 15:19 »
I’m sorry this is so frustrating for you, I think it’s often made very complex (especially with sourdough).

My dad was a baker, so I grew up making vast quantities of the stuff!  As a result I am very lazy and slapdash about it, but here is what I do.

Buy good flour. It must be strong, and unless you want very dense bread, at least half white. If you want wholemeal start with half and half white and wholemeal and up the wholemeal gradually until you get the texture and taste you like. Full wholemeal is too dense for many people.  I buy mine from Wessex Mill (who are partially open for orders atm) and handily sell half and half, and have had reasonable results with Waitrose’s, but rubbish results with doves farm.

Don’t put sugar in it.

Don’t rush it.

Don’t keep it too warm.

Eat it the day you make it, or freeze it. It really doesn’t keep.

I make mine in the bread maker every Friday, on the pizza dough setting, which takes 45 minutes. This is a fast mix, bit of a rest, bashing good knead, first rise for half an hour or so and then I take it out for a squash-and-shape. I often end up doing squash and shape twice because I am not ready when it is. I usually shape into rolls and and then I put it the fridge all night. Yes, really.

When I get up on Saturday morning. Or perhaps after lunch. Or sometimes even when we get in from somewhere on Saturday night, I fling it straight into a hot oven for fifteen minutes. Then I put them in the freezer and nuke them for one minute when I want one.

I think the problem with your bread is a firstly sugar. Even a little makes bread denser. I know it’s counter-intuitive, but my bread became much fluffier without it, instantly, when I stopped adding it on the miller’s recommendation. Secondly, I think you are proving it much too warm. Again, contrary to popular belief, you don’t need a warm place to prove bread. It will prove faster in a warm place, but this isn’t a good thing. Firstly, you get fewer, bigger air pockets, which make denser bread (you want a lot of little ones) and secondly (and I think this is your main issue) as the air bubbles produced by the yeast get bigger, the dough around it gets thinner (think ballon). So when it’s baked it can’t support the bubble and collapses. I think this is what is happening to your bread. Sugar makes this worse, because it makes the yeast act faster. 

You can prove bread in a warm place, but it takes more skill to find the sweet spot between enough rising so there is air, and too much when it collapses. In a very warm place it can be just a couple of minutes and vary enormously between houses, summer and winter. In the fridge, it’ll be hours and hours and pretty constant. Hence my lazy Saturday mornings.

It is possible that your flour is a bit duff (this varies year to year, Miller to miller, wheat to wheat and so on) or that your yeast is a bit duff (but it’s much tougher than most people think) so start with flour. It’s also possible that you are not kneading enough (kneading creates strength in the bread) or that your dough is too wet (which means it can’t hold its structure well. If it sticks to you a lot, it’s too wet) or too dry (when it would be too stiff to rise. It should be soft, and make you want sink your fingers into it, and it should stick a little). I don’t think it’s salt. Salt does indeed impede yeast action, but you are getting rise and then a sink, so your yeast is working.

My recipe for good measure

400g Wessex Mill Strong White Bread Flour (or 200g White, 200g wholemeal)
1 tsp of salt
A slosh of olive oil (About two tablespoons. Amount not crucial. Or any type of oil. Or a chunk of butter. Whatever)
A dessert spoon of yeast (I keep a measure in the yeast jar and thought it was a tablespoon for years!)
240ml of water

Mix it all together, until it makes a soft dough.  Then knead it.  It should feel ‘nice’ - pliable and squishy, but not too sticky. Softer than playdoh or biscuit dough and sort of springy. Leave it around in the kitchen covered with a tea towel for half an hour or so. It should look puffy and floofy. (Don’t worry about ‘doubling’ that’s crazy hard to estimate in a bowl!)  Give it a quick squish around to make it like it was before, then put it into its tin, or shape into rolls (eight is a good size for this mix) or a round (whatever. My kid makes dolphins and plaits and alsorts) on a baking tray, cover with a tea towel and leave in the fridge overnight.

In the morning, get the oven up to 180°C (or 200 for a non fan, maybe. It’s not critical, but don’t put it into a cold oven)  take off the tea towel and bake for fifteen minutes for rolls (I don’t know how long a loaf would take, I haven't made one for years. I can certainly try, if you’d like). When they start to brown, take them out and tap the bottom. It should feel dry and sound slightly hollow)

Eat it that day, it won’t keep overnight (it will be ok for toast, but it’s so good when you first make it you won’t want to eat day old bread anymore. Shape and bake it in quantities that you eat it in, or freeze it in slices if you really like slices. It’s better frozen as rolls though. They are quite soft enough for sandwiches and lovely with soup.

I would not be adverse to doing a video, for people who really like visual learning, if people think it would help?  It looks an awful lot written down! 

I’m not qualified to comment on sourdough. I made it once, and it took days and days of faffing around feeding starters and halving the mix and waiting and so on, and the bread was EXACTLY the same at the stuff I had been making in 45 minutes every Friday for years. So I didn’t bother again. I concluded that the reason people like sourdough is that bread needs time to develop flavour. Mine already had it, so it wasn’t any better.

Thank you for this, it is very insightful and I shall study it.
I'd rather make a yeasted loaf rather than feed up a sourdough. The kids don't like it much and I'd prefer to be able to make a loaf more spontaneously. We and the In Laws are hunting for more yeast, but there isn't even flour to be had in the shops. So until we get it I'm stuck with the same brand Badger cull flour (marriages) and no yeast.

But once the new strong flour arrives (Matthews), whose rye and spelt flour bread did rise a bit last year I'm stuck with the flour I've got and no yeast.

*

Wellington

  • Experienced Member
  • ***
  • Location: East Midlands
  • 132
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2020, 19:19 »
If you’re happy to pm me your address, I’ll send you some to be going on with. I believe there is plenty in the country, but it’s not usually bought in small packages, retail, so there is a supply chain hiccup! 

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2020, 12:46 »
Can I keep you as standby?
We've tried the fresh yeast from the shop bakery and the new flour that arrived yesterday and wow did it start rising fast. totally different. I should try the fresh yeast and the old flour for a direct comparison.

modify, started a second loaf, not a direct scientific comparison due to temperature differences. but the flour is the only controllable variable I will change.

I've just mixed the second one and the difference  :ohmy:

The Marriages-original flour isn't sticking to the dough hook the same and didn't form the nice smooth look during kneading like the Matthews did.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 13:42 by WeavingGryphon »

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2020, 13:51 »
Quote
Little girly eeeek of excitement
and some excited arm waving.

For the first time ever a loaf is above the top of the tin!
left is the first proving of the old flour, it is actually getting higher. Right is second proving of the new flour. Both fresh yeast.
rising.JPG

*

Wellington

  • Experienced Member
  • ***
  • Location: East Midlands
  • 132
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2020, 18:18 »
Looks like you’ve found your problem!  It’s like magic, isn’t it?!

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2020, 18:21 »
Original flour, same recipe and yeast. Wow the difference.

Matthews,
Sat in a ball on the end of the dough hook
In the second part of the mixings it sat nicely at the bottom of the dough hook in a ball
During mixings it left the bowl clean
Nice smooth look within 5 minutes in the mixer
both proving rose noticeably within 30 minutes. it got to the top of the loaf tin I do the second proving in.


Marriages
Sagged off the hook after the both mixings
sagged off the dough hook both mixings, the entire time.
had to scrape the mixing bowl clean  :nowink:
Ragged look after 10 minutes in the mixer
Rising first proving- slow, but it is rising
Rose, but not as much as matthews.
not as many bubbles

So it's mostly the yeast that is the problem. There is a difference in the two flours, Matthews rose more and I preferred working with it. It seemed stronger.

Picture shows the two loaves, not in matching loaf tins. Left is Matthews (new flour), right is Marriages.

How does the crumb on both look? Matthews got to stand and cool a bit longer than the Marriages did.
Matthews, marriages.JPG

*

snowdrops

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Location: Burbage,Leics
  • 19585
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2020, 19:55 »
Sounding better, but are you slow Cingular the, still warm?
A woman's place is in her garden.

See my diary pages here
and add a comment here

*

WeavingGryphon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: Aberdeenshire
  • 995
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2020, 10:04 »
Sounding better, but are you slow Cingular the, still warm?

Did your post get attacked by your spell checker?

*

Blackpool rocket

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: North East Hampshire
  • 522
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2020, 12:23 »
Lots of interesting "stuff"

That's an interesting read, thanks for taking the time to post it.
I'm just starting another loaf, without sugar.
Interestingly enough my flour to water ratio is exactly the same as yours, mine came about by trial and error!
I am at present using active dried yeast instead of the usual bread maker yeast.
Can you advise me on how long it should stand for before adding to the mix?

My bread maker doesn't have a pizza dough setting, so I'll carry on using the dough setting but I'll give it just 40 mins and see how that works.

*

snowdrops

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Location: Burbage,Leics
  • 19585
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2020, 14:40 »
Sounding better, but are you slow Cingular the, still warm?

Did your post get attacked by your spell checker?

Sorry I’ve got no idea what happened or what I was trying to say lol

*

mumofstig

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Location: Kent
  • 58190
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2020, 15:58 »
Sounding better, but are you slow Cingular the, still warm?

Did your post get attacked by your spell checker?

Sorry I’ve got no idea what happened or what I was trying to say lol
I wondered in my twisted mind if it was " are you slicing them while still warm?"

*

Blackpool rocket

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Location: North East Hampshire
  • 522
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2020, 17:35 »

I wondered in my twisted mind if it was " are you slicing them while still warm?"

You are Sherlock Holmes and ICMFP  :D

*

snowdrops

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Location: Burbage,Leics
  • 19585
Re: Getting bread to rise.
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2020, 20:45 »
Sounding better, but are you slow Cingular the, still warm?

Did your post get attacked by your spell checker?

Sorry I’ve got no idea what happened or what I was trying to say lol
I wondered in my twisted mind if it was " are you slicing them while still warm?"

Mum you’re a genius, that was it  :lol: :lol: :lol:


xx
Bread Making: Nowhere Warm To Rise

Started by michellela on Cooking, Storing and Preserving

25 Replies
10356 Views
Last post November 07, 2010, 16:31
by Aunt Sally
xx
Bought bread tears, my bread crumbles, why?

Started by Kleftiwallah on Cooking, Storing and Preserving

10 Replies
5527 Views
Last post January 17, 2015, 19:53
by Scribbler
xx
Bread , oil

Started by chrissie B on Cooking, Storing and Preserving

6 Replies
1370 Views
Last post June 12, 2020, 10:47
by chrissie B
xx
Problem with bread.

Started by Kleftiwallah on Cooking, Storing and Preserving

28 Replies
10250 Views
Last post March 24, 2013, 13:35
by Kleftiwallah
 

Page created in 0.126 seconds with 53 queries.

Powered by SMFPacks Social Login Mod
Powered by SMFPacks SEO Pro Mod |