[al78]

I think a lot of people when first enquire about no dig allotments/gardens etc miss the point in some ways, Its not so much no dig but back to nature, if you walk through a forest or woods you will see the top layer of soil is teeming with life, if you then start to dig the soil the bugs and fungi will either clear off or be eaten by preditors so you have lost natures gardeners/diggers, no dig is more about preserving whats there as an ecosystem and keeping the soil moist, Dave

I assume that using a rotavator is dreadful for the soil ecosystem.

I am a little skeptical of the philosophy of the emulating nature concept, although I think it is a great concept. Allotments are not natural ecosystems, and the crops we grow are far removed from plants of the same family that grow in the wild. If you buy a packet of cabbage seed and scatter it in the wild I would be amazed if a single one survived to maturity. The seeds we grow either for food or eye-candy are weaklings compared to their wild family members, and as such are first choice for the herbivore predators (survival of the fittest, prune away the weakest). This means that some human management will be necessary in order to give the weaklings a fighting chance of survival.

[AlaninCarlisle]

I think al78's post brings some common sense into this discussion. We grow crops to eat, not to try and emulate nature in our back gardens or rented plots

[gobs]

Many might also find that allotment committees do not like it either, if you emulate nature on your plot...

[Luiska]

I think al78's post brings some common sense into this discussion. We grow crops to eat, not to try and emulate nature in our back gardens or rented plots

I would imagine that growing crops to eat is the primary reason most would give for having a rented plot (though not a garden, perhaps) but I'm not sure how true that actually is. You only have to look across an allotment - there are around 200 plots where I have mine - to see that growing veg for food is not just, or even mainly, what it is about. That would be a bit like saying that the purpose of painting is to cover a canvas with paint. That is the end result, but it is just not what it's about.

Why do people cling on to plots that they are not looking after (in my opinion, anyway)? Why don't they weed or compost or even water? Why do they come so seldom? And yet they get in a state when the field sec. suggests they shape up or ship out. They are obviously getting something out of it that isn't even an end product in some cases. While other people - and they are usually quite fervent about it - get their biggest thrill out of emulating nature (to varying degrees) in their growing practices, even if the basket of veg at the end is a bit holey and spotted and small. (Hide the Roundup - and the spade!)

I'm finding the variety rather fascinating. 

[al78]

Why do people cling on to plots that they are not looking after (in my opinion, anyway)? Why don't they weed or compost or even water? Why do they come so seldom? And yet they get in a state when the field sec. suggests they shape up or ship out.

Because they take it on with the best intentions, then life gets in the way or they find it too much hard work, and let it go, but they cling to the intention that they will give it a go next time they have a free weekend, so they hang on to it just in case, or forget about it until the letter comes through the post, at which point they give up or make a token effort by clearing a square meter, then leave it to nature again.

[jambop]

I am no weakling nor am I particularly lazy and although the thought of no dig is nice, for my main garden there is no way I would be without my trusty MTD Pro 44 rotavator . I am making some raised beds which will have an element of no dig to them but the long row open plot stuff is rotavated to clear winter weeds and incorporate manure.  My top soil is very shallow, maybe only 30cm deep in places but I am improving it with organic matter to make it up. The good thing is though that it is good stuff and I get good crops from it. It is strange to me to read that to grow things successfully you need a good deep well worked soil ... I get great leeks. onions , tomatoes, beans you name it and I have very shallow top soil in fact last years leeks were planted in a place where their roots were actually growing into the clay sub soil ??

[Salmo]

But some do come good. We have to endure the agony of unkempt plots for the ones that learn to love growing something to eat.

[ilan]

No dig is not the right way to go on a weed ridden plot The clip on TV with monty don was just wrong you cannot put 6 ins of soil over a lawn or bed of weeds and grow anything.The thinking behing no dig is just all wrong on many types of soil yes if you have a light deep soil But anything like clay and its a no If you put 6 ins of nice compost on top of a hard bed of soil all the worms will live in that why would they go deeper into cold food free soil . I dig my plot evey year but with a digging hoe just turning over the top 9 ins this is done in the autum to get the frost into the soil to kill of any hibernating pests and again in the spring . some beds then get a top dressing of compost and saw dust . I now avoid horse manure like the plague even if its free ! Most vegetables will grow in 12 ins ( 30 cms ) but if you go down to 10 0r 15 cms deep then you start to restrict what will grow well, whilst each plant will require more space as the roots will spread out  not go down into the mineral rich sub soil  they will also need more water .

[al78]

No dig is not the right way to go on a weed ridden plot The clip on TV with monty don was just wrong you cannot put 6 ins of soil over a lawn or bed of weeds and grow anything.The thinking behing no dig is just all wrong on many types of soil yes if you have a light deep soil But anything like clay and its a no If you put 6 ins of nice compost on top of a hard bed of soil all the worms will live in that why would they go deeper into cold food free soil . I dig my plot evey year but with a digging hoe just turning over the top 9 ins this is done in the autum to get the frost into the soil to kill of any hibernating pests and again in the spring . some beds then get a top dressing of compost and saw dust . I now avoid horse manure like the plague even if its free ! Most vegetables will grow in 12 ins ( 30 cms ) but if you go down to 10 0r 15 cms deep then you start to restrict what will grow well, whilst each plant will require more space as the roots will spread out  not go down into the mineral rich sub soil  they will also need more water .

I think this is a bit oversimplified. It can work, not with spreading a bit of organic material and thinking that will eradicate every weed underneath, but by putting sheet material which will decompose over time such as cardboard, then laying organic material over this, can knock the weeds back substantially. On the community plot I am involved in, some volunteers put cardboard down on a weedy bed then piled straw on top. When I pulled back the cardboard it was nearly all clear soil underneath with just the occasional severely weakened dock which could be dug out easily. It was so clear it didn't take more than five minutes quick dig where the soil was compacted before I put some brassicas in. If I had wanted too, I could have left the cardboard down, cut holes in it an planted through in the soil underneath.

I believe another way to deal with ground that is covered in grass is to scour the top few inches containing  the grass roots and lay it into clods upside down, then cover and leave it to die and rot, this provides organic material which can be put back on the soil.

[ilan]

Yes I would agree it will work as you describe but that is not the no dig as shown on TV the soil underneath your cardboard has presuably been cultivated you are not trying to grow in a few inches of top soil . I to only "dig " the top 9 ins of soil but underneath that is another 12 ins or so of previous cultivated soil I try each year to double dig a small  area  to grow a few pumkins in with plenty of compost worked in so eventualy the entire plot will be done

[Pooleman]

I do wonder whether any of those casting doubt on 'no dig' have ever tried it.  Deep enough mulch does kill the majority of weeds - the persistent perennial weeds are continuously dug up until they give in.  Horse manure when properly composted has all the weed seeds destroyed.

No dig means that soil is not turned upside down every year thus uncovering thousands of weed seeds, but it is not the leave it alone option, every weed that shows itself should be removed.

Many fellow allotmenteers scoff the principle but they have never tried it - hardly a position of knowledge.


Try it and find out for yourself.

[arh]

I think that the person to ask about no-dig gardening is Beekissed

[Mr Dog]

I do wonder whether any of those casting doubt on 'no dig' have ever tried it.  Deep enough mulch does kill the majority of weeds - the persistent perennial weeds are continuously dug up until they give in.  Horse manure when properly composted has all the weed seeds destroyed.

No dig means that soil is not turned upside down every year thus uncovering thousands of weed seeds, but it is not the leave it alone option, every weed that shows itself should be removed.

Many fellow allotmenteers scoff the principle but they have never tried it - hardly a position of knowledge.


Try it and find out for yourself.

Exactly. After 3 years I still get a few perennial weeds coming through but nowhere near as many annuals as those around me. After being dug in the autumn my neighbouring plots are covered in new weed growth by spring whereas many has virtually none. But, as is often the case with gardening, each to his own.......

[ARPoet]

I do wonder whether any of those casting doubt on 'no dig' have ever tried it.  Deep enough mulch does kill the majority of weeds - the persistent perennial weeds are continuously dug up until they give in.  Horse manure when properly composted has all the weed seeds destroyed.

No dig means that soil is not turned upside down every year thus uncovering thousands of weed seeds, but it is not the leave it alone option, every weed that shows itself should be removed.

Many fellow allotmenteers scoff the principle but they have never tried it - hardly a position of knowledge.


Try it and find out for yourself.

Exactly. After 3 years I still get a few perennial weeds coming through but nowhere near as many annuals as those around me. After being dug in the autumn my neighbouring plots are covered in new weed growth by spring whereas many has virtually none. But, as is often the case with gardening, each to his own.......

The 2 main reasons why i do woodchip or back to eden no dig, is that, 1) weeding is dead easy, and 2) watering is mostly unnecessary. I now have more time to enjoy my garden. Digging became a hard chore a few years ago.

[mumofstig]

Digging became a hard chore a few years ago.

It can be, but my point is still..

My line of reasoning, although I can see the benefit to the soil of no-dig - is that it would take as much, if not more, hard work to move all the compost/manure, as it does to dig.

I've not seen any discussion about that?

Many plot holders, here, dig to improve drainage on their plots (it's clay about a foot down ) I wonder would no-dig work in those circumstances?