[Snoop]

Mr Snoop bought me a couple of second-hand gardening books dating from the 1950s and they've got me all inspired to improve a couple of things I'm not very good at, in particular brassicas.

My plan is to try and do what they suggest in the book: deep digging and adding well rotted muck, straw and Superphosphate (which I can't get, so I'll add P and K) at the bottom before piling the soil back on.  I know from other threads that at least some members of this forum do this and then side dress when plants go in.

I have three long beds (13 m x 1.2 m), one of which I'll use for cabbage, broccoli and caulis for use in the summer. I'll be putting sprouts and PSB in one end of the other two and the rest of one of them will be taken up with peas and broad beans, which I hope will all be finished by the time I need to plant my overwintering cabbages and caulis out. The other bed will remain unused (apart from some sprouts) till planting out time in July/August.

The summer bed seems pretty straightforward to me and I'll just do as suggested in the books. But what about the other two? I presume the peas and broad beans will benefit from the muck and P and K deep down but will the brassicas? I guess I'll need to add more, but I won't be able to deep-dig before the cabbages go in because the soil will be too loose. And what about the bed that will have nothing in it? Won't the nutrients in the muck and P and K dug in in autumn be partly lost by the time summer comes around?

I used to be able to grow decent cabbages but seem to have lost the knack (too much reliance on the rotavator, I suspect, meaning the soil is too loose and soft). I'd love to be able to get it right. So can anyone give me any advice on timings and the best approach? Thanks for any help.

[Kristen]

Are your 1.2M beds permanent? (rather than just being part of a plot where the "paths" are not in exact same place each year?)

I've got raised beds that width, I never walk on them (as in never ever!) and I've stopped digging them altogether.  They do get dug, somewhat, in the years that they grow root crops, but that's it.

I mulch in the winter with a thick layer of manure / compost (but not the Roots bed).

All sorts of schools of thought, of course, but the one I am interested in is leaving the worms etc. alone to get on with their job and not breaking up the soil, and their habitat.

Heavy clay here, so traditionally it would lend itself to winter digging and letting the frost in, but after a few years of just mulching, and perhaps because of the raised beds (they are only raised a few inches, but it is enough to improve drainage) the soil is in much better heart than the rest of the garden.

[BumbleJo]

I agree with Kristen.  We acquired our allotment only a year ago when it was a field just used for hay.  (It's not council run, just privately owned bits of land attached to our village originally given to those with no gardens) after ploughing, rotovating and laying out the paths and beds, 4 ft wide, raised a bit, we laid a thick layer of manure courtesy of our lovely farmer neighbour over every bed and left it alone over winter.  Everything has grown brilliantly including the brassicas.  Ive not used any other fertiliser and I've never grown veg before and am really chuffed how well things have done but believe it to be down to the manure and no-dig, never walked on approach. It's made working the beds very easy too!

[ptarmigan]

Another vote for mulch with manure/seaweed/compost and no dig and no walking on the bed.  Soil is in great nick - veg grew well.  The allotment is on heavy clay.  It makes for practically no weeding in the spring as well.

[Snoop]

Thanks for your replies. Yes, the beds are permanent but I think digging is probably required, at least for a while. The soil in a very large area is solid pan about eight inches down due to compacting by heavy machinery. We've had that part ploughed three times now (including a very deep ploughing), but it just seems to settle back to being rock hard. Our fields are subject to flooding from up-valley, so a lot of very fine silt is washed down, sometimes several times, every year, which probably doesn't help.

On the issue of weeds, we're surrounded by abandoned farmland. Weeds are a fact of life all year round, unfortunately. Bindweed, wild rocket and fat hen are a particular nuisance.

In the past, I've put down two or three full barrow-loads of muck and a smallish bucket (say 10 litres) of ash per bed and then rotavated it in. The cucurbit and potato beds get extra. I have twelve beds in total. They get walked on during rotavating but very rarely at any other time (except by our 30-40 kg dogs hurtling after foxes and birds).

I could get a large delivery of muck and put it down on all the beds except the one I will use for root veg. However, it would likely get washed off in the rains in late autumn and spring. If I were to put down muck as you suggest, how thick a layer would you recommend and when? Would you do the same for the legume beds?

[surbie100]

I guess it depends what state the soil is in to begin with. Mine have blackthorn roots and brambles in, as well as major docks and a lot of creeping buttercup. So I've gone for double digging to get everything out.

I have noticed that the beds I double dug a year ago are really compacted, and am adding more manure & leaves and going to sow green manure (one of these days) to try and loosen it up.

It's solid clay under about 12-15 inches of dark topsoil. In the last 2 winters the plot has had standing water in the beds and paths for 4 months. I reckon breaking some of that clay up can only help. I turn the manure into the soil when I can rather than leaving it on top as I've found it just becomes a nursery for slugs.

[Snoop]

I turn the manure into the soil when I can rather than leaving it on top as I've found it just becomes a nursery for slugs.

That's useful advice, Surbie. We have so many snails and slugs this year after the mild winter and wet spring... I don't want to encourage more.

Do you do your double digging and manuring in the autumn or leave it till later, closer to planting time?

[surbie100]

My plot is still very much under construction Snoop, and on a slope which I am attempting to level out a bit. I also work nearly full-time. So what with that and with my plot's tendency to be boggy, I dig whenever it's dry enough and I have the time/energy for it. I have tended to plant up as I go because of the queues of veggies in pots. And I add more manure whenever I plant.

None of this is probably what I 'should' be doing, but I think I get away with it because the ground has largely been fallow for years and is really fertile.

I might go 'no-dig' later on, but I actually like digging. Particularly the beds that I have already done once as the problematic stuff is no longer there. 

[Comfreypatch]

I usually dig over the beds when I empty them , then add manure/compost to them and cover with membrane for the winter. That means less weeding in the spring. The bed for roots I just dig and cover. All the beds are raised mostly only 4/5inches except for the beds on an area that used to flood and they are 12/15inches high. I usually rake in a brassica feed when I put the plants in and then give them another feed later in the season.

[Kristen]

Yes, the beds are permanent but I think digging is probably required, at least for a while. The soil in a very large area is solid pan about eight inches down due to compacting by heavy machinery

I see people using lasagne method on virgin ground, just piling organic matter on top, but I too favour an initial dig, particularly if there is a plough-pan or similar, or horror-of-horrors a new-build with all the builders rubble and muck just buried under some topsoil.

But I personally would not plan to dig it more than once. I created lazy-raised-beds on mine, just digging the paths out a spit's depth and putting the soil onto the beds - so not so much raised-beds, as lowered-paths.

I think if yours is sitting under water for prolonged periods that would contribute to compaction, and lowered-paths might solve that? Increasing the organic matter will help reduce compaction too of course, and it you have access to plenty, even if just a one-time flying-start, that would be my choice.

On the issue of weeds, we're surrounded by abandoned farmland. Weeds are a fact of life all year round, unfortunately. Bindweed, wild rocket and fat hen are a particular nuisance.

I have the same problem, farmland all around me. I have experimented this year with about 50% of the crops (the ones planted later in the season ) grown through woven weed suppressing membrane, and they have been very easy to look after - no weeding, and reduced watering - so next year I will grow all crops through woven membrane (except perhaps things like Parsnips that would be very hard to harvest).

If I were to put down muck as you suggest, how thick a layer would you recommend and when?

4" - 6", more if you like, particularly if you will rotavate it in.  I don't think there can be "too much" in Year 1 - you might want to put some Nitrogen down, to help with decomposition, otherwise that is perhaps going to rob some Nitrogen from the soil.

Would you do the same for the legume beds?

I would - it will help with water retention. You could dig a trench and fill that with organic matter instead, but if Beans are part of your crop rotation I think that improving the organic content generally, rather than specifically in a trench, would do much the same job, and benefit crops in subsequent years more.

If you are going to mono-crop beans in a permanent bed then perhaps a Trench of organic matter would be better.

[Snoop]

Fantastic answers. Thanks.

Surbie and Comfreypatch, I pretty well do the same as you, digging and mucking as I go. But I thought this might be part of the reason why my brassicas don't seem to do so well and it would be better to try and get ahead of myself and let the beds settle. The beds are 'made' in the sense that I won't be changing my mind now about where they are to go, and I have a clear rotation plan sorted. Usually I have a bit of a lull in work and visitors in November and late winter, so I was thinking this might be a good time to get my brassica beds sorted.

Like you, Surbie, I'm constantly playing catch-up with things in pots and sometimes, I have to admit, they don't make it into the ground... Like you I work full-time and living off-grid adds considerably to the amount of time even ordinary jobs take, but my vegetable patch is at home, so at least I don't have to waste time travelling to it.

Thanks for your very detailed answer, Kristen. One side of my veg patch was compacted by a JCB. We were advised we needed it for a particular job in spring and I didn't know any better at the time, but I've been regretting it ever since.

My beds are like yours, in fact, with material from the paths thrown on to the beds, though not as much. I'll have to see if it's feasible to dig the paths lower. I rake larger clods and clumps to the sides of the bed after rotavating, so they each have an earth 'wall' a few cm high around them. Flooding can be quite severe and the valley is virtually a river at times. Constructed raised beds that are popular in the UK would be pointless here, as any wooden sides would likely get shifted, even washed away, and do far more damage than an earth wall. We've recently had some heavy rain and hail that has done a bit of damage, which is always saddening, but I try to take it in my stride as growing fruit and vegetables gives me a lot of pleasure.

I will see what I can find in the way of weed suppressant material here. I've never seen it here, but I could get a friend to bring some over from the UK at a pinch. Do you water through it or do you have pipes that run underneath it?

Thanks for the advice about the amount of muck (that's quite a lot!) and legume beds. My legumes will rotate rather than stay in one place, so I'll take your advice and  I'll get on the case and order large amounts of muck to be delivered. We can get sheep and goat muck that the farmers and shepherds prepare very well (watering and turning it) as selling it is part of their income. It's always well rotted and very fine, making it easier to rotavate in.

[Kristen]

I will see what I can find in the way of weed suppressant material here

Two brand names, in case it helps your search:  Mypex & Zybal

Do you water through it or do you have pipes that run underneath it?

Rain will go through, no problem, but watering from a hose can be too fast to go through, particularly when the membrane is new (and shiney!).  I also put leaky hose under the membrane for some crops.

We can get sheep and goat muck that the farmers and shepherds prepare very well (watering and turning it) as selling it is part of their income. It's always well rotted and very fine, making it easier to rotavate in.

Sounds perfect!

[beesrus]

I have two thoughts on brassica beds.
Firstly, if the bed is dug over now, which is what I do most years, there is a whole Autumn, Winter and Spring of rain and pestilence to firm the bed down well enough for the firm bed needs of brassicas come planting in April/May. In my experience, 7 or 8 months of settlement is plenty enough. If the bed still feels too spongy come March, turn it into your favourite pathway for a couple of weeks... that will soon firm it up. The real big thing to avoid is to dig the bed in the Spring a few weeks before planting..

Secondly, I think the worry of washing out of the nutrients from animal manure thing in the Winter is hugely overplayed, unless you're farming a river halfway up a mountain. In any case animal manure applications are more to do with soil structure and depositing veg matter into the soil, rather than immediate nutrients vulnerable to a flash flood out to the sea. It's only later in the cycle does the improving soil conditioning naturally help the nutrient count. Once that is underway, a good old dose of chicken manure pellets before planting will give the brassicas the best of starts. One of the biggest mistakes that can be made then, is not putting down enough pellets. Give it a bit of welly.
And of course, if there is a local bird problem, all the above is pointless if we don't actually net the plants. A system is as strong as it's weakest point.

[Snoop]

Thanks, guys. I've managed to find some weed suppressant material here, not under the brand names you mention Kristen, but it looks to be the same stuff. Does it heat up the soil a lot? I could probably use quite a bit of it throughout the summer too, especially if it reduces the need for watering (I water using watering cans - very laborious!). Melons and squash come to mind as suitable crops, as well as the brassicas, as I find them quite difficult to weed successfully, what with all the trailing vines. Better set myself a budget!

Beesrus, what do you do for your autumn and winter brassicas? Do they go in after something else? In my case, I was thinking of putting some in after broad beans and peas while the others would go in a bed that had not previously been used that season.

[BabbyAnn]

Does it heat up the soil a lot? I could probably use quite a bit of it throughout the summer too, especially if it reduces the need for watering (I water using watering cans - very laborious!). Melons and squash come to mind as suitable crops, as well as the brassicas,

Yes, it does heat up the soil which is why it probably isn't such a good idea for brassicas which are more a "cool climate" crop.  Perfect for melons and squash, even sweetcorn - and like you mention, keeps those weeds down.  There is some loss of water and watering with cans on the membrane could be difficult - with regards to brassicas, but why not try mulching instead?