[Beekissed]

I was thinking the same thing!  Those trees looked tortured....all bent over and knobbed up in the middle.   But, he's getting some good looking fruit, so can't argue with that, can we? 

Never saw trees like that.   

He shows the dirt before he started and it was hard, packed solid, looked pale and undernourished compared to the after shot.  I have put massive amounts of amendments to our own garden here but it never seems to help...still have to do something each year, so I'm thinking it doesn't matter what he did for the previous 17 years, only what happened to the soil after he tried this method....it was clearly changed, darker, more loamy and moist.  If I can see that much difference in just a couple of years, I'll be more than happy. 

[beesrus]

Hi Beekissed, welcome to gardening on this side of the pond from a namesake 
Without my having to watch an hour and a half video on what might be useful views on growing food, could you roughly tell me the pertinent points in a couple of sentences of this grower's methodology, and what impresses you in particular, that is different from most holistic soil practice ?
That would be much appreciated. Does it differ in any way to this very good small 5 minute article on soil management that you might have missed, that was linked back on the original thread concerning this video. This article is fairly close to my present methods, although not totally.
http://paganpath.com/library/herbs/37-garden 
You may well find both approaches very similar, I don't know, as I say, an hour and a half is just too much bandwith for me to check out your video. I'm always looking for better ways to improve soil and growing environment, and you seem to have studied this person's methods and been hugely impressed. Thanks in advance. If there is something of real value to me, I might find a free wifi spot to watch it.

[Beekissed]

Yeah, it differs.  It doesn't really go into all the different ways to garden like the article, just concentrates on using a deep layer of chipped trees on top of the soil.  The first year they side dressed with manure due to the loss of nitrogen where the chips interact with the soil surface, but after that they didn't need to add anymore supplements~though it shows him doing so now and again~ due to the composting of the wood chips in place.  Then they just keep that topped off when it needs more cover. 

He found that it changed the nature of the soil he was trying to garden, held moisture to a steady measure no matter if it was rainy or dry that year, evened out the soil pH so that one could plant acid loving plants right next to plants that didn't do so well in acidic soils and kept the soils under the covering so loose that there was no reason to ever till again in any way.  He could even drive a truck on the garden and no compaction occurred. 

There was a lot of information and answers to the usual questions about any method that folks want to know, even pests, which I found interesting.  There are many vids now on YouTube that show different people trying this method and they are pretty interesting as well. 

I've tried a lot of different kinds of garden, but not this one....and this one makes the most sense.  Don't know how I didn't hear about this until now but I'm just glad I've heard of it.  Been gardening for almost 40 yrs now and wish I could turn back the clock and use this method all those years...would have saved a lot of work and worry.   

[beesrus]

I wish I could turn back the clock and use this method all those years...would have saved a lot of work and worry.   

C'est la vie pour tout les jardinieres
So it's basically a woodchip thing. Thanks for that, and funnily enough woodchip has been a recent topic on here. Always liked using woodchip, feels right somehow, all that naturally stored years of sun energy in a compact useable form. If the worms like it, I like it. There are a few concerns these days as to what the timber/vegetation might have been exposed to before being chipped.... certainly chips coming from the local Council parks/highways department and their sprays. I also still have a worry too of overly acidifying things.

Fortunately, immediately next door, a private small town wood has just been culled for certain reasons and the mainly 10 year old ash trees have been totally woodchipped and left to decompose. I now have a free  inexhaustable supply until the Spring growth covers it all.
I do like the sound of dark loam, that's what we're all after, along with facing the right way. Good luck with your soil.

[adri]

The absolute key to the eden garden success is (imho) the chicken poo he spreads everywhere.

I once took over an allotment which had had masses of hens on it for quite a few years. I remember potatoes the size of footballs no exageration!! Parsnips that took two to carry etc...

Adri

[Beekissed]

I don't know...been using chicken manure for a long time now and I've not had that kind of garden going on.  He doesn't even have enough chickens to produce enough to cover his entire garden and orchard with the stuff.  You can use all the manure you want, but if you don't have the right soil medium or if your soil is a dead soil, it just won't grow things well, nor will it hold in the moisture. 

He explains in the vid about the pH and how it changes with the composting of the chip matter.  Says it doesn't get too acidic but can't remember his exact words on that.  I'll have to watch it again here soon. 

[adri123]

Here's a bit of support for my argument...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfX525YOr_4

Might be wrong but looks like the chicken poo is important from this guys perspective.

[mumofstig]

Might be wrong but looks like the chicken poo is important from this guys perspective.

I agree as I said
http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=113354.msg1381243#msg1381243

this also talks about the chickens making his 'compost' and also adding horse manure/shavings to the coop.
HIWfGfgUCII

[beesrus]

Thanks for the short video Mos. So, it's basic sustainable organic tending after all, and yes the chicken manure certainly appears to be an important part of that, along with the horse manure that was mentioned. As already said, maybe he underestimates the value of his many years of effort. Soil sustainability isn't a 1 year fix.

Very similar to my own bio-dynamic methods by the look of things, although due to local mills he can source cheap/free wood chippings. Local conditions here dictate the cheapest available bulk organic matters are cow/horse manure deliveries, while keeping an eye out for the amino pyralid problem. I produce my own wood shavings, and that helps out a bit, but am always conscious of PH, so don't use tonnes of timber residue, but when I do, as a mulch and temporary paths in the first year. It then gets incorporated and is fine. The plot is still roughly neutral, so I must be doing something right. Unfortunately I have to buy in my chicken manure, but that's how it is... I find it absolutely essential in the overall mix, and would say it is that little bit of difference between so so and good results on my particular plot.

I almost forgot, seaweed is a bulk matter I have access to, and that certainly helps, especially as a Winter mulch that gets pulled down. But that only happens on a few beds every year.

[Beekissed]

Here's a bit of support for my argument...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfX525YOr_4

Might be wrong but looks like the chicken poo is important from this guys perspective.

I watched that guy also and left a comment on his vid as well.  He, among many others, missed that important component when they use this method for the first time....Paul clearly advises to use manure side dressing the first year or so until the wood chips start to decompose and even later shows doing it again simply because he can.  The guy in the vid compared the tobacco to the things growing in his raised beds but failed to realize his raised beds had mulch under the chips as the soil medium whereas his garden plot had nothing but chips on top of ugly, dry, packed soil and he hadn't bothered to add manure to the tobacco at all.  Not a real logical assessment of the results, when he didn't even follow the instruction in the vid of BTE.  I found a few vids similar to his wherein the people did it wrong and then gave a little sideways slam to the method...always a source of amusement.  I have family like that...they see something you are doing works great so they try it at home but they do it the wrong way and come back to complain that it "must only work on YOUR land, animals, kids, etc.".   

No denying that adding manure helps things grow and that's a natural fact...but that guy had those chickens and had no doubt been adding that manure for the 17 years previous to the wood chip idea, same as me.  Folks out here in the hills been adding chicken manure to the gardens and fields every single year of the soil's existence and they don't get yields like that...not consistently and not without a lot of hard work.   If they did, his video would be called Back to the Chicken Coop Garden, I'm thinking.   

If you'll look at what small amount~one barrow almost full~he scooped out of that run, you'll find that an almost barrow full don't go far in a garden and orchard the size of his.  And chickens can only poop so fast...and then you have to give that poop time to mellow and bind with the materials he is placing in the run so that it's safe to place on the garden.  That's a process and takes time.  When it's hot, just a dab will do ya...when it's properly composted it's about the same as any other manure compost. 

Yeah, the manure plays a part but anyone can put chicken manure on a garden...been doing that one for the past 10 yrs myself.  I don't think it's the key to his success.  He also uses the horse manure mix from the stable owner guy now and again...and that helps, but I still don't think that's the answer.  I think the key part of his method is the covering~wood chips~that creates a better soil medium and holds in the moisture and nutrients where they need to be.  Or a combination of it all...but mostly changing his soil from that hard, compacted, dry, pale, dead existence into a loamy, absorbent, moist and loose life. 


Edited to clarify quote and separate from reply.

[mumofstig]

It looks as if people see this from different points of view, and we aren't agreeing, so perhaps best to leave it there for people to make up their own minds about what's important 

[beesrus]

If they did, his video would be called Back to the Chicken Coop Garden, I'm thinking.   

Maybe it would have been more apt to call it Back to the wood pile.
I don't get the Eden connection in the video. Very close to me there is something called the Eden project.... but that is all about the reconfiguration of centuries old minning spoil bad lands into productive growing space. It's about rebirth, with no religious connotation.

[Ema]

I have t got time to watch the film at the moment but will catch up at the weekend.
I have tried no dig beds and found it worked great with compost, grass cuttings and leaf litter but I only had enough to do a small area of the plot.

I hate wood shavings they are nasty I won't use them for any pet!

[cadalot]

It's Called Back to Eden because the underlying message is don't dig every year, add material in the way nature would, decaying trees and vegetation as the lush forest floor full of beneficial mirco, and insect life, he even believes snails and slugs have a job to do. Thus he is working with nature or in a fashion akin to nature and not against it. The God / Eden Reference is back to that's how it was provided and intended to be used, as a meerkat would say "Simples"

If you can't see that then you have watched, but not understood. Watch it again and let the reference to God read Nature in your mind and you understand more.

[beesrus]

I didn't watch the long one Cadders, only the short one posted by Mos. It just sounds like a straightforward permaculture/organic system, where all living entities are considered, hence my paganpath link earlier in the thread. I just have a problem understanding what is new about it.
I used to be big on permaculture myself a long time ago, and then modified my organic sysytem  slightly to accomodate a bit of single spit digging. The raising of beds with yearly mulches (woodchip or manure) is also common practice these days. Here it is manure due to availability and price.