[ConfusedGardener]

Hello all,

Our soil here is a bit on the acid side, and would like to grow some asparagus, peas, and celery which all prefer lime. I already have some peas and celery germinating in the propagator, but have only just started to dig the beds for them - I know... it's late!

I'd like to amend with manure/compost/organic matter as well as rock-dust, and dig deep to break up the compacted soil we have here, but what should I do? Amend the soil with manure first, then give it a month or two and then lime just before planting out, or lime now, and add organic matter later?

Forgot to add, can I use the seaweed meal or chicken manure that I have at the same time as I lime?

Also, I don't suppose anyone knows where I can get a sack or two of fine lime? In the past all I've been able to find is lime in pellet form.

[agapanthus]

We scrounged some from the local farmer who has a pile of about 500 tons  It's a bit rough but put it through an old fireguard. We have used it because our soil is so clayy (is that a word???) Put it on the dug over soil first and then put loads of horse poop on top and when then rain stops we will work it in. Don't know if that's the right thing to do but it's done now. Just got to work it and get a fine tilth......this will be sometime in September I reckon!! 

[ConfusedGardener]

I hope it works for you agapanthus. We also have quite allot of clay in our soil, although I have yet to see any where we are planning to put the celery/asparagus/peas, but I've only just scraped off the top layer of lawn there.

[fatcat1955]

Lime + Manure = chemical reaction = not good.

[agapanthus]

Lime + Manure = chemical reaction = not good.

In what way??

[JayG]

Lime reacts with the nitrogen compounds in manure and can release ammonia, which being a gas can be lost to the air, hence losing some of the nutritional benefit of the manure.

To some extent it depends how you do it - ammonia is soluble so will dissolve in the soil water and eventually will be converted into useful nitrates, so if one or other (or both) are buried it's not so much of a problem, although in general it's always better to make changes to the chemistry and biology of the soil as gradually as possible.

Putting the manure on top of the lime is much better than the other way round - it'll be absolutely fine when you work it all in together anyway.

[agapanthus]

Lime reacts with the nitrogen compounds in manure and can release ammonia, which being a gas can be lost to the air, hence losing some of the nutritional benefit of the manure.

To some extent it depends how you do it - ammonia is soluble so will dissolve in the soil water and eventually will be converted into useful nitrates, so if one or other (or both) are buried it's not so much of a problem, although in general it's always better to make changes to the chemistry and biology of the soil as gradually as possible.

Putting the manure on top of the lime is much better than the other way round - it'll be absolutely fine when you work it all in together anyway.

Well that's good then 'cos a very kind young gentleman put his lighter then Munt's rotavator over it for me  The last thing I need on this rubbish clay gloop is it to compound. It is the vilest soil I have ever come across and whilst I was trying to dig one of the beds quite deeply to get all the weeds out I had to stop and just cry  It is so very heavy, wet and incredibly sticky. I understand that sharp sand is a help but that is way out of ur budget.

[shokkyy]

We're on clay soil where I live, and the year before last I started off a new veggie bed that was dug out of a lawn and the soil was truly horrible, solid clay which I gave up on trying to dig. That year I smothered the bed with seaweed meal, rock dust and some garden compost, and last year the soil was hugely improved, lovely black crumbly stuff and very easy to dig. I seriously doubt the compost made much difference, because my garden compost tends to be a bit rough and there wasn't enough of it to cover the whole bed. Rock dust isn't supposed to really make a difference to the structure of the soil, so it can only have been the seaweed meal that did it. I did put quite a lot on, and I did go for the meal, which is supposed to work on soil structure, rather than the usual calcified seaweed.

[ConfusedGardener]

Thank you all for the replies.

After a bit of thinking about it, I think I've come up with a solution: Lime now, plant as usual, and feed with teas. The only problem is I still have not come across a source for lime. I'll have another look tonight, but if someone could recommend a source it would be very helpful.

agapanthus - your soil sounds like a gooey nightmare! The one thing you you can console yourself with is that clay is packed full of minerals, so if you can tame it, you should get excellent growth!

What I have been doing where I have found a lot of clay, is removing most of it (and putting it aside till I can figure out what to do with it), and leaving a few clods aside to dry out in the sun. Once dry, it crumbles easily into a fine powder which I sprinkle over my beds.

Luckily most places where I've sunk a shovel don't have too much clay, just a 6-12" layer about 1-2' below the top soil. Had a surprise today though: below the clay is a thick layer of what looks like fine gray gravel, which I assume is an alluvial deposit of ground up slate (which seems to be the bedrock round these parts) from the last time a glacier was passing through. I'm guessing that should be packed full of minerals/nutrients too, so I intend to bring some of it up to the surface soil layer.

shokkyy - nice to hear someone is using similar amendments to those I am using, and that they helped. I have the non-calcified stuff too, and I'm wishing I had some more, but it's quite expensive stuff. In hindsight, I should have passed up on the rock-dust (I didn't realize there would be so much ground up rock round here!), and bought another big sack of seaweed.

[agapanthus]

Seaweed seems to be the answer....very expensive though unfortunately. Perhaps on my next trip to the seaside I can gather some! 

[ConfusedGardener]

Seaweed seems to be the answer....very expensive though unfortunately. Perhaps on my next trip to the seaside I can gather some! 

Be warned, technically gathering seaweed without permission is stealing, but if it's only a couple of shopping bags full you might be ok.

I'm not sure if it'll be quite as good (and fast) as seaweed, but pretty much any organic matter worked into the soil should help. So perhaps whatever you can get, with a little bit of seaweed mixed in would be the way to go.

[agapanthus]

Seaweed seems to be the answer....very expensive though unfortunately. Perhaps on my next trip to the seaside I can gather some! 

Be warned, technically gathering seaweed without permission is stealing, but if it's only a couple of shopping bags full you might be ok.

I'm not sure if it'll be quite as good (and fast) as seaweed, but pretty much any organic matter worked into the soil should help. So perhaps whatever you can get, with a little bit of seaweed mixed in would be the way to go.

We call it foraging in this neck of the woods......we've foraged about 20 tons of wood to keep us warm this winter! 

We have copious amounts of horse poo....quite well rotted, so loads is going in too, whatever organic kitchen waste we have and chicken poo and straw from the chooks

[Christine]

Let the chicken poo rot a bit - it's too hot to be used for areas where you want to grow immediately. But yes - the road to go with clay is any manure you can get (horse, chicken and round here pigeon). You'll be fine if you persist over a few years.

[agapanthus]

Let the chicken poo rot a bit - it's too hot to be used for areas where you want to grow immediately. But yes - the road to go with clay is any manure you can get (horse, chicken and round here pigeon). You'll be fine if you persist over a few years.

Wouldn't dare use it fresh......would take the skin off your hands!!! :blink: :blink: