[Paulj]

So I was at my old allotment getting the rest off my stuff together including my raspberries when my 87 year old plot neighbour turned up. He's an ex farm hand and has had his allotment for the last 35 years, so I mostly trust what he says, and his advice and help over the last year was invaluable to me for my first year.

I was telling him how it was taking me ages on the new plot to dig it over for the first time since the couch grass and bindweed roots are taking so long to pull up (they seem to be in patches rather than everywhere, but I was trying to get as much up as possible when I did find them).

His reply was, "you silly s*d, check for yourself, those roots go well beyond 5 feet deep in the soil so you'll never get rid of them. They just go too deep."  (He's right, they do go too deep, although I've not checked to his 5 feet)

I already knew about the fact that if you cut them up they shoot from that tiniest of roots again. And he said that's fine. His advice was to stop wasting time with my digging, give the whole plot a light forking to loosen all the soil, then to rotavate it all the other way (knowing I have a mantis now) a few times to break down the soil to the right consistency for sowing.  When you inevitable find the new weeds popping up either pull them up from the soil as most of their roots won't be that deep, or paint them with glyphosate to try and kill them and the roots.

Now, I am time limited, as I am travelling a few days in the next couple if weeks for work and were on holiday for the first two weeks of April.  Ideally I want to get the whole thing dug over, ready for owing when we get back from holiday.  Does anyone else take this approach to their lotty?

In terms of using glyphosate to paint the weeds, I'm not against this as I don't tend to go in for the whole organic thing anyway.  It's nice, but not ultimately why I have the lotty.

[bravemurphy]

A good way to get the bind weed i find is to put canes in the ground and let it climb it. then you can see it and paint it.

Personally i would not go near it with a rotavator i would dig by hand and cover anything you cant dig with plastic and even plant through the plastic .

[Salmo]

Certainly in the pre-glyphosate days it was a big mistake to chop up couch with a rotovator.

Now that we have glyphosate things have changed and chopping it up is probably the best way to go.

Chopping it up will stimulate and dormant couch. Rotovate it. Let it lie for a week or two until the couch has sprouted and there are leaves. Spray with glyphosate. Any bits that have not sprouted will inevitably come later and will need digging out or glyphosating, or just hoe them off and tackle them in the Autumn.

As you have a mantis it might be a good idea to plant your crops a bit wider so that you can easily rotovate between the rows.

[Totty]

In my opinion, a mantis is purely for tilling. Creating a nice crumb on top of your previously well dug or rotavated soil. I would spend my time digging it properly and removing everything you can see first. Tilling the top layer will just hide any weed/ drainage problems you have.

Totty

[Paulj]

Drainage doesn't seem to be a problem at all. All of the plots around me have been and still are quit soggy at the moment and whilst theirs have flooded, mine hasn't at all.  Got lucky I suppose.  The soil only goes about a foot and a half deep before you hit a soft red clayier layer.

[mumofstig]

It sounds as if you've already made up your mind what you're going to do 

In my first year I got rid of the couch roots I found when digging, nowadays I only get patches that grow in from the path. They're easy enough to deal with - when I do the edges.
Couch roots don't seem to go that deep as it runs along near the surface, shooting again a few inches away.
Here it's the Bindweed that has much deeper roots and still come back a bit each year! I  carefully glyphosate where it does.

[grendel]

I'm in two minds about this, up until now I have rotovated the plot, two or 3 times then just the bed I am planting before I plant. I still get weeds. but over winter having rotovated in autumn, the weeds are just a thin layer of grass and clover. This year I havent been able to get the rotovator going properly, so have to hand dig, it is turning out quite easy (though taking a lot longer) and ok there is a surface layer of grass and weed, but nothing spectacularly bad.
usually the first rotovate pass of the season needs frequent stops (after each row) to clear the weeds from the tines, subsequent passes becoming easier. now my little rotovator is just a small 3hp one, but it does just about handle the new ground ( I pull towards me as that makes it dig deeper).
So while I still have weeds after 3 years they are just small ones and easily managed.
Thus my dilemma, hand dig or rotovate - I do notice that the weed situation in areas that have had potatoes grown is a lot less.
Grendel

[BabbyAnn]

IMO, using a rotavator to chop up perennial roots means each piece of root has a finite amount of food available for the weed to rely on to send up shoots.  So when they start to grow, "killing" them should be easier than trying to deal with an established root system with a larger food store.  However, if not dealt with, then the opposite will occur - each piece will eventually become more mature weeds, thus rotavating will just be a means of propagating the weeds rather than removing the problem  

[MattHB]

I have the offer from a senior plot holder of the use of a rotivator. I might well take them up on the idea. The plot was pre dug by the council, but its still very rough.

[Paulj]

It sounds as if you've already made up your mind what you're going to do 

In my first year I got rid of the couch roots I found when digging, nowadays I only get patches that grow in from the path. They're easy enough to deal with - when I do the edges.
Couch roots don't seem to go that deep as it runs along near the surface, shooting again a few inches away.
Here it's the Bindweed that has much deeper roots and still come back a bit each year! I  carefully glyphosate where it does.

I haven't ate made up my mind mum. It's a very tempting idea though given I'm running out of time.  On my other plot last year I did go through the manual process, and it did work well, but I didn't have bindweed, just couch grass so removing those roots was a doodle and actually relatively therapeutic, but the bindweed seems to go so much deeper!

[Paulj]

I was actually expecting to get a torrent of replies that suggested not to do this, but the response seems mixed, with supports for both opinions!  Looks like this weekend is going to be out of the question for doing anything given the weekend weather forecast of rain...

[compostqueen]

I don't rotovate and I don't like weedkillers anywhere near my food.  You do what you like on your plot but weeds are an inevitability. It's not as if you kill them once and that's it. I think people truly believe that they will only need to kill weeds once and that's it. It's not. If your plot is so dead that weeds won't grow then your crops won't either

An allotment is not an agricultural field and I think some plotters think they're farmers, with the same imperatives.  I had my plot to get away from the pesticid-laden crops of the supermarkets, so I'm not sure why folks are keen to replicate it once they get a plot of their own and the opportunity to grow veg in a less intense manner.

Perhaps it's a man thing  

[Paulj]

I don't rotovate and I don't like weedkillers anywhere near my food.  You do what you like on your plot but weeds are an inevitability. It's not as if you kill them once and that's it. I think people truly believe that they will only need to kill weeds once and that's it. It's not. If your plot is so dead that weeds won't grow then your crops won't either

An allotment is not an agricultural field and I think some plotters think they're farmers, with the same imperatives.  I had my plot to get away from the pesticid-laden crops of the supermarkets, so I'm not sure why folks are keen to replicate it once they get a plot of their own and the opportunity to grow veg in a less intense manner.

Perhaps it's a man thing  

I'm not us it is about that at all, and besides that I think you've completely missed the point of my question.  I expect the weeds to grow again, and fully expect to have to deal with them.

Discussing the rights and wrongs of chemicals on an allotment wasn't the point of the discussion either.  I tried to make that clear by stating that I personally have no problem with it.  I try to use as little as possible, but at the end of the day I have limited time due to work, family and general life.  For me it's more about the enjoyment of growing everything, and some time away from everything else.  I'm not an organic nut, and never will be. 

There are far too many chemicals in this world that we come across inadvertently throughout our lives that ruling out a little glyphosate really won't make a difference to anything.  Another point is that, at least I know when I am using it, where and what it ha been used on, and in probably a lower quantity more specifically only where it needs to be used.

[Totty]

I agree. The organic v non organic argument will rage on but that's not the point. The question was how to clear the patch ASAP in the given circumstances. I'm a believer in using organic to grow where possible, ie feeding the soil, inorganic wont do this. I don't do this because using manure/compost etc is organic, I do it because its better for the soil therefore grows better crops. When it comes to killing stuff i use anything that helps most, ie, weedkillers, petrol driven machinery.

Use what your comfortable using and learn from any mistakes.

Totty

[Aunt Sally]

We've never used a rotavator as our soil is light and easy to dig but I do believe in knocking back the perennial weeds with glyphosate if necessary.

I would use glyphosate BEFORE rotavating.  That way the roots in the soil that the rotavator would cut up are killed first.