[Primeacres]

Hello all,

A Quick question for the forum if anyone can help.
 
Hen pecking I understand, chickens fighting I get it, but what has been confusing me is why the leader of our small flock of chucks stands on the back of one of the others who is regularly bullied at the food trough by the leader and her 2nd in command partner in crime ?

Anyway.... When she is bullied like this by the 'Top Dog' chicken, who stands on the back of our newest member of 4 months, she doesn't attack her normally, by that I mean she doesn't peck her at all (though she used to do this) she just stands on her back like a balancing act and that's it. The victim does nothing in retaliation, she simply stays where she is and once the attack is over she goes about her business as normal if not slightly wary at most. These attacks incidentaly are generally NOT feeding time related.

The victim chicken is very placid and I cannot imagine her fighting back as she is that mild mannered and straight forward, she has always taken whatever has been dished out to her and knows her position in the flock is at the end of the queue and I can say that the pecking is stopping but this is baffling me. 

The chucks are all experienced egg layers and located free range with a good amount of space for them to go about their business and generally only have a problem with each other at feeding time.

Any ideas why the attack is like it is ?

Thanks in advance
Mark

[Lindeggs]

Here's my theory:

As with many "pack" animals, the pack is usually made up of a dominant male and several females.  (Sub-dominant males are usually driven away when they reach maturity.)

In a home flock, the dominant male is missing, so the chief female often adopts male-like behaviour as part of maintaining her dominance.

So in your case, the dominant female is "mounting" other hens to assert her dominance - much as a rooster would do.

You often see this behaviour in cattle, dogs and other animals when a group of females is kept without a male.

Does your dominant hen show other rooster-like behaviours? Does she protect the rest of the flock, lead them to food, etc?

[Primeacres]

Hi Lindeggs, thanks for your reply.

Yep, makes sense to me what you are saying as we don't have a rooster or cockerel and the no1 bird could actually be mistaken for being a rooster as she is a leghorn anway and very strong and energetic. When she starts strutting her stuff she could be mistaken for being a male on first glance, but I can categorically say that though she is great at spotting danger and problems she would be happy to hog the food trough all to herself and she used to be so protective over the food that she would literally try to back shove the other chucks out the way so they couldn't eat and she would spend more time shoving them and pecking them than eating. Now she is more like a 'monitor at the table' who only has a problem with and bullies the 'Odd Hen Out' who is generally 1st at the food bowl when I take food out but Rooster Hen will lead the flock out when they are scratching or worming. Chuck a newly discovered frog into the equation and it will change hands (or beaks) as it becomes a free for all to get the frog or vole etc and who ever is fastest will get the prize for a minute then the chase keeps changing hands, great to watch and never any bullying when this goes on.
The 'Rooster Hen' is always the first to spot and run for cover as soon as there is a problem even though she looks and acts like the tough one BUT the 'Odd Hen Out' is also very quick even though she is an ex battery hen who had no idea that she had to look up  for Buzzards etc until recently and now runs for her life as soon as she hears the calls from the Buzzards when they are out hunting.
Rooster Hen - Generally she is perfect for flock protection as she never misses a thing, has a big mouth,makes a lot of noise when something is wrong and is always the first to figure things out in the flock regardless of new perches, nesting areas or anything else.
Only problem is she is nervous of everything, even me and my wife and creates such a fuss that she makes the others nervous on many occassions as she is so lively when nervous, bit of a drama queen I think is the best way to put it.

BUT at bedtime when they are settling down the 'rooster hen' shows a lot of respect to the other chucks including the 'Odd Hen Out' and often sleep by her, where as her deputy is nicknamed Dracula as she used to be a nasty piece of work and start fights at bed time with the new chucks and still pecks at the odd hen out.


Early on when we first had the original 3 Amigos initially, The Rooster hen had and still continues to have a big effect on the other two Amigos who used to be very comfortable around people but this had gradually changed over time as the 'Rooster Hen' used to make such a 'Drama Queen' fuss over everything  that the other chucks used to run round with her whenever she started making even the slightest fuss so it has been hard work.
When she went to point of lay it was very funny but is the grounding of the 3 Amigos as Rooster Hen could never decide where to lay, it went on for weeks and was funny as hell I can tell you and could last hours, better than any comedy on TV.

Could babble on all night so am going to grab a cuppa instead.
Cheers

PLEASE NOTE : i thought I should mention that I never feed my chickens frogs or voles manually, they occassionally naturally find and catch them in the garden  of their own doing and has nothing to do with me.

[Lindeggs]

LOL Primeacres I love it how every hen has her own personality!  And you're right it's better than anything on TV.  Who needs Coronation Street when you have a soap opera in your own back yard? 

Apparently Leghorns are known for being a bit 'flighty' and it sounds like your Rooster Hen fits this mould.

[Primeacres]

It's true but not just hens, animals ain't as daft as a lot of or most people think they are but you gotta look to be able to see it as you will already know of course, and funny we should mention TV, my mother inlaw is staying with us tonight and earlier she talked about getting her 1st television in 1066 I think it was :-), I'm Sure she mentioned she had a fling with the Norman Conquest, infact it was probably started cos of  her LOL and she's a flighty old gal I can tell you, but she hated the fact that the TV took a lot of life out of the house, all people wanted to do was watch the tele, just like today and though it has it's good sides, you definately get a hell of a lot more by doing it rather than watching it on a screen and learning that way, I think so anyway. The only decent soap in my house is Wrights Coal Tar Soap on the sink. Not affiliated in anyway honest.
Chickens are tougher and much more complex than I ever imagined before we got ours in and I have learned loads about them, the eggs are secondary most of the time but the best eggs I ever tasted that's for sure !!
The flighty leghorn we have is definately true to form from what I have managed to find out about them definately. Bit of a Marmite bird really either love em or hate em, she keeps me and the other chucks on our toes that's for sure, reckon a flock of an all individual breed would be amazing to watch.

Thanks for making me aware though about the mounting business, makes life a bit easier now that I know and it does make sense. We have thought about getting a cockerel or rooster in as she does work hard to look after the other chucks but time and reajusting time has held this off. Reckon I will go for it though, will keep you posted. When we do though, old cockerel had better be better at mounting and keeping an eye out for the foxes than the 'Rooster Hen' otherwise he will be sacked !!

[orchardlady]

You will love a cockerel. They are much maligned creatures. I've always found that once a cockerel is introduced the whole flock is much less 'pecky' with each other. I'm sure that the expression 'hen pecked' actually refers to cockerels. They allow their girls to be quite robust with them but when necessary will tell the girls to stop being moody mares. A cockerel will show the girls the choices morsels to eat by picking it up and dropping it repeatedly rosey all the while until one of the hens rushes up and snatches it away without so much as a simple thank you. He will watch for predators and call the alarm if he is concerned sending all the hens running for cover. I once found a fox sitting watching my hens. The cockerel was standing in the middle of the field putting himself between the fox and the flock. So they are certainly brave and take their duties very seriously.

[Primeacres]

Hi Orchard Lady,

Sounds good to me, that's for sure. Have to say that is a brave move by the cockerel, admirable especially when he probably wouldn't be moarned if the Fox had got him. Sounds like a human trait :-)
But seriously getting a cockerel ourselves for our hens I think is probably the best thing we can do before we consider getting enymore hens in ?
Though our leghorn is very flighty and always alert, when she chills, she chills well, infact they do chill well as a group too but not as often as they could do. It would be great to see our leghorn more settled and NOT mounting the other hens. I have always thought the only thing that can sort out Ellie our leghorn is a cockerel but never considered it as the best thing to do allround until now. Thanks.

[Lindeggs]

The local city regulations say I can't have a rooster.  At first I thought, "That's fine.  I don't want one anyway.  He can't lay eggs so he's no use to me!"

Now I understand flock behaviour a little better and I quite like the idea of a boy in the flock.   Maybe they have their place after all.

P.S. In my rebellious teenage years I used to wear a badge that said "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."     I have mellowed with age, have a lovely hubby, and find him much more useful than a bicycle (most of the time).

[orchardlady]

Oh I've just thought of another lovely thing a cockerel does. Sometimes if a hen is in a nest box I've found the cockerel sitting very near the nest box entrance, very gently 'talking' to her. What a dear thing to do to keep his wife company/protected while she lays her egg. Sweet boys.
 

[Primeacres]

Hi Orchard Lady and Lindeggs,  what are your names ? If you don't mind me asking.

Thanks for the extra on this post, means a lot and I have to say that I honestly think you are right about the Hen Pecking business, I know cos I am Hen pecked all the time by 6 of the female species, 10 if you include my chucks as well !!! Wife included, infact she is the worst hen pecker of them all !!!!!.
Bicycles, well I am reliant on one at the moment, mans best friend is his dog unless his van breaks down like mine ! lol and without it we would be stuck, keeping me fit though so can't grumble, cold weather makes the tyres stick to the floor though maybe should try getting the wife out the house and on the bike once in a while :-) only kidding.

Lindeggs, what a shame you can't get a cockerel in due to city regulations, we are from m the city (Birmingham) so I know exactly how it is especially when trying to 'have space' not easy, my Mum now lives on the outskirts of Milton Keynes in a culdesac in the middle of nowhere and she kept chickens for 6 years, one day a neighbour over the back fence complained to the council about her chickens and even blamed the death of his cat on My Mums Chucks !!, he reckoned they had killed and eaten his cat, never seen again, (didn't realise chickens ate bones aswell as cats !! lol) , the supposed authorities came out  to take a look after his complaint and she had to register all of them, have to say they almost locked her up when she kicked up a fuss, I think being able to identify each bird and put a name to them is what that did it, Mum was gutted, she has only just got Chucks back in 3 years later after 'paying to register the disposal of the  previous 8 chickens as the guy wouldn't stop hounding her and dad whio is a builder, through 'legalities and apparently his and his cats human rights'  I can tell you now her chucks were  better off than the local farmers.  Thumper her rabbit is happy to have the new chucks in of course, she also grows all the veggies etc and itgives her so much pleasure but even in the country where she lives, she is frowned upon for her work, Mum by the way is a vegetarian.  If you have ever thought of moving out of the city I can say it's certainly not easy but is very doable. We rent our place in a posh part of Worcesteshire, it just happenned that way and we struggle all the time monetarily and with the hillbilly shotgun toting locals, our old house we rent in the city (with issues of course ) and work online as well as work day jobs and doing what we love doing to get to where we want to get to which is a smallholding of our own, seems to me you both have a good data base in your head, damn good start in my eyes, maybe you could start your own website if you haven't already ? Worth a shot to get started.

By the way, the cockerel sitting next to the nesting box brings back some memories of the chucks looking out for each other when laying, they even used to lay eggs in the same box and the non laying broody one Dolly, would sit on them, I once found 9 eggs underneath her when I eventually twigged that she was the decoy after searching every bush and corner of the garden after no eggs in the boxes after a few days, very clever girls and made me feel like a prison warden in all honesty so you have certainly given me food for thought, plus of course he would save me a job that is for sure, it is hard to live a double live, one as a cockerel and the other as a man, my chucks do listen to me (the wife just ignores me lol) and watch what I do, security and feeding times,  my girls are free range but it doesn't matter where they are housed, they have a mind, sense and feeling, probably a heart as well, one that only a decent cockerel will truly understand.

[Primeacres]

New question, I would start a new thread but prefer to put this question to this post as I am happy here.

Winnie our 'Odd Hen Out' is an ex battery hen, we got two of them together and unfortunately Wilma is nolonger with us.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, our ex battery hens BOTH had CUT top beaks, meaning that the battery hen farmer who previously owned them , had sliced the top beak to shorten it, with a hot knife, apparently to stop the hens fighting and pecking each other , I think there was 12 to a square foot of cage.

Anyway, Winnie, who has taken all she can have dished at her, and she can't defend herself as she doesn't know how to plus can't hurt the other chucks with a blunt beak, is actually getting stronger, she is a great chuck to have around and even sits near me while I chainsaw wood for our fire, she is fearless, sounds romantic but it aint, we have our moments and Winnie our 'pet' chuck now has the problem of a curling lower beak, not only is this a problem for her but the other chucks see her differently already so not a good scenario for our Winnie to be in really.

Basically, top beak was trimmed back leaving the lower beak maybe 10 mm longer than the top, which meant she coun't peck , clean, eat or drink effectively.

Now the top beak is growing normally after months of carem, the beak is pretty much inline as should be now BUT Her bottom half of her beak is now curling UP and OVER the top beak.

I want to trim this curling beak myself, I think it will keep doing it , like an ingroing toenail, but what I am looking for is advice on the best way to cut or trim the curling beak - without calling a vet.

If a vet is required I will call one, BUT if all that is required is a careful hand and sharp cutters then I am sure I can do the job myself. 

Any ideas on how to do this ?

Also does the chickens beak actually have nerve endings ? So if I do trim her curling lower beak, will it hurt her or is it similar to hair and nails, they grow but feel no pain when trimmed ?

Cheers
Mark

[Lindeggs]

Oh I've just thought of another lovely thing a cockerel does. Sometimes if a hen is in a nest box I've found the cockerel sitting very near the nest box entrance, very gently 'talking' to her. What a dear thing to do to keep his wife company/protected while she lays her egg. Sweet boys.
 

Aaaww that sounds very sweet, orchardlady.  What a lovely boy!

[Lindeggs]

Mark, that does sound like a whole new subject there with your poor hen's beak!  I have heard of other people trimming hens' beaks with very sharp nail-scissors, but I have no experience of it myself so I'm afraid I can't help.

It does sound like trimming her lower beak is the best option though, so I hope someone will be along soon to advise you.

By the way, my name is Lindis.  But I don't mind being called Lindeggs.   

[Primeacres]

Thanks Lindis, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and Orchard Lady.  Hope to sort the chucks beak soon.
All the best.

[orchardlady]

It sounds as if Winnie does need to have her lower beak trimmed. I would suggest that it's a two person job. One to hold her and one to do the trimming. I've never needed to trim a lower beak but have done the upper. If you look carefully you should be able to see where the beak becomes thinner. Think like a finger nail from the white nail to the pink nail. Of course it will be less pronounced. I use a goo quality of nail clippers to do this job or if you do not feel confident with the clippers try a nail file. Just be careful and if she gets too stressed let her down and try again another day. The reason this is happening is she is not wearing the beak evenly because of the top beak being so severely cut back. Give her time and she will be fine. She sounds like a lovely little hen and it's amazing how attached you can get.

It might be a good idea if you start a new topic about this as you will hopefully find others that have experience  that will help.

You sound as if you are getting to do what you want which is wonderful. Oh yes by the way I ignore my husband to and he in return thinks I'm barmy about my hens.


If you don't mind I'll continue to be called Orchard Lady, no offence.

Best wishes and keep going with ALL your girls.

OL