[Juhannus]

I've had my allotment for just over a month and so far think we've made good progress.  I took over a plot that was newly created last year and it was planted but for some reason left before they harvested.  It's been rotivated just after I took the plot on, which I have mixed feelings about as I don't want to go down the round-up road.  At the moment half of my plot has been planted and my intention is to improve the other halfs soil ready for next year.  This is where I've become confused.

I got manure delivered last week and was intending on spending the summer double digging it into the soil.  The ground that I've started to work is really stony though.  I can only get about half a spades depth before I hit loads of big stones.  I've been digging these up but yesterday one of my neighbours told me that I need to leave these in because they're my drainage.  He also said that I need to build up my topsoil by adding manure.

Should I really leave the stones in the ground? Should I fork out all of the weeds and the roots then dig in the manure or could I just spread it over the plot and hope the worms do their job then dig it over in the autumn?  I don't mind the hard work of digging out the stones and weeds if I have to but if the same effect can be achieved by spreading the manure over the plot I'd rather do that.  Sorry if they are dumb questions but I'm new to growing veg.

[Zippy]

Just my twopenneth:

Don't bother digging, spread the manure over the top and let the worms dig for you. Pick only the large stones out when it comes to harvesting potatoes on that piece of land.

[Juhannus]

Thanks for your twopenneth    I like the idea of letting the worms do the hard work until autumn.  Should I fork out the weeds first or just get spreading?

[STIG1963]

If you hit stones at 4/5 inches how are your carrots and parsnips supposed to battle through?
Get out as many stones as possible it might be worth concentrating on one section of your plot for now just to get you going.
Don`t go to the added cost of adding topsoil ,maybe raised beds are a better option for your site?

[corynsboy]

Your neighbour understands the need for drainage but has missed the point entirely.  You can't grow soil.


Building up that amount of topsoil using manure is impossible as manure is purely organic and has no minerals (ie it does not contain stone) so it will all eventually just blow away.  Soil is not purely organic material so if you need topsoil quickly then you'll have to buy it in, in one form or another. 

You can often get it free on Freecycle and Gumtree and Ebay but you'll usually have to arrange pick up.

Have an ask around go and look at his plot and other member’s plots to see what others have done or if they even share the same stone problem.  Local knowledge is a wonderful thing.

If you can't arrange the topsoil this year do dig out all of the weeds first but don't waste your time digging in manure if it will stay on the plot all year.  Worms will do the work for you and give you great soil structure.  Just water the manure surface once a week and break up any big lumps on the surface with a fork or with your boots and keep it weed free. 

If you can, keep adding manure to the surface once a month as the volume of the manure shrinks massively as it taken in by the worms.  Finally give it a good dig in the autumn when the weather gets cold, dress again with manure and leave for the winter.

Please remember that manure really is about soil structure it contains some of most of the nutrients needed for cultivation, but if your soil is so very thin then it will serve you well to do a couple of soil tests and find out what else is missing and try and remedy this at a the same time.

Best of luck

[Juhannus]

If you hit stones at 4/5 inches how are your carrots and parsnips supposed to battle through?
Get out as many stones as possible it might be worth concentrating on one section of your plot for now just to get you going.
Don`t go to the added cost of adding topsoil ,maybe raised beds are a better option for your site?

I've spoken to plot holders who have been there up to 17 years and not one of them are able to grow carrots due to carrot fly yet they can grow parsnips which I thought the carrot fly was also attracted to  .  I had decided to have 5 raised beds; a seed bed, a permanant asparagus bed, a carrot bed (which I plan to keep covered with scaffolding netting), a salad bed and one for maybe purple sprouting broccoli.  I can't really afford to buy topsoil and have no car to transport any I might find on freecycle.  I'm going to spend the weekend making the raised bed for salad stuff so I can some over the summer.  Pallets may just become my new best friend over the years.  Thanks for the reply, all advice greatly appreciated 

[Juhannus]

Building up that amount of topsoil using manure is impossible as manure is purely organic and has no minerals (ie it does not contain stone) so it will all eventually just blow away.  Soil is not purely organic material so if you need topsoil quickly then you'll have to buy it in, in one form or another. 

You can often get it free on Freecycle and Gumtree and Ebay but you'll usually have to arrange pick up.

I don't mind digging out all the stones a row at a time over the summer if that's what I've got to do, I'd prefer to do the hard work this year if I'm going to get the benefits in future years.  I think I might look at investing some sturdy bags just in case I do find some topsoil on freecycle, I just can't imagine my MIL being cool about me loading it into her posh 4*4   Maybe if I remove the stones as I dig the weeds out it won't cause that much of a problem because my plot runs downhill...or would that make it worse? I'm planning on putting a water butt at the very bottom, along with my compost and manure and because the soil seems worse there, that's where I'm putting my raised beds too.

Have an ask around go and look at his plot and other member’s plots to see what others have done or if they even share the same stone problem.  Local knowledge is a wonderful thing.

LOL I've looked into the history of the allotments and have found out that there used to be a bell pit on the land.  The soil is high in clay and last year they made 5 new plots at the bottom of the hill where I am.  The plot holders who have been there for years are all at the top of the hill and their soil level compared to mine is huge!!!  I have spoken about stones to a couple of others at the top of the hill and they said to remove them but maybe they meant the little ones.  Every one of them tell me to keep digging in the muck.

If you can't arrange the topsoil this year do dig out all of the weeds first but don't waste your time digging in manure if it will stay on the plot all year.  Worms will do the work for you and give you great soil structure.  Just water the manure surface once a week and break up any big lumps on the surface with a fork or with your boots and keep it weed free. 

If you can, keep adding manure to the surface once a month as the volume of the manure shrinks massively as it taken in by the worms.  Finally give it a good dig in the autumn when the weather gets cold, dress again with manure and leave for the winter.

Please remember that manure really is about soil structure it contains some of most of the nutrients needed for cultivation, but if your soil is so very thin then it will serve you well to do a couple of soil tests and find out what else is missing and try and remedy this at a the same time.

Oh I'm so glad that you are all telling me to spread it manure over the surface.  I guess that next weeks tasks (OMG the next couple of months really) involve me forking through the weeds, digging out any big stones to at least a spades depth then a weekly covering of manure, ready for the autumn.  Thanks for the advice