[sunshineband]

Not a really really old one (1904) but we were given a Laxton's Fortune tree at the Autumn Harvest Day and we are planting it this morning.

The tree is two years old, so it won't be too long before it fruits (The chikdren who received it are 8 yrs old so they will still be around at school to eats some of the apples  )

[Growster...]

Are you saying that grafting apple trees will produce an absolute clone every time then Jonewer?

I thought that over the years - centuries maybe, there would possibly be a general deterioration of the species in some examples.

The ones we had were from a very old local orchard, which was grubbed out last year, because the apples were just as I described, and also very prone to disease, hence my statement.

I'm not an expert on apple trees, and we never did find out what species they were, so we'll never find out now - more's the pity!

[sunshineband]

That is the point of grafting Growster -- an absolute clone of the parent scion. 

Sometimes there are other branches grow up from the rootstock and if these are not pruned foo they can weakne the scion considerably (the rootstock is a different variety just chosen for its control of ultimate size)

Occasionally rogue branches of the main tree can throw up somehting different too (Think of how variegated shrubs sonetomes produce green shoots) but that doesn't happen too often with apples as far as I know

[hamstergbert]

The older the scion from which the graft is sourced, the more likely it is that the resultant tree will deteriorate in spite of being a supposed clone.   To use the people metaphor, if you created a clone of some fit healthy twenty year old bloke I reckon that clone would be a lot healthier for longer than if you were dopey enough to clone me!  In addition to taking a pattern from a gradually failing template, there is also the system shock of the process of cloning/grafting.

Cell production (in trees, to form the new growth twigs from which eventually cuttings may be taken for graft) will rarely be an absolute exact copy, just as in people the replacement cells are never an entirely perfect copy.  This divergence process can be accelerated through environmental considerations - dirty air, unusually harsh dry seasons etc.

In general the accuracy of copy will be 'good enough' but over time (and regenerative cell cycles) the copy of a copy of a copy of a copy will inevitably diverge a little from the originals.  Of course, on the plus side sometimes additional traits can be acquired through imperfect reproduction resulting in a growth that on the positive side can prove beneficial (to the organism or to the grower - in people perhaps an unexpected skill or talent) or detrimental (lack of resistance to disease, underdevelopment etc) and in the extreme cases major failure to adhere to the reproductive blueprint resulting in damage that can weaken and destroy the whole organism.

Of course, due to the long and slow nature of tree-type vegetative growth processes this deterioration tends to happen pretty slowly.  But it does happen and will have some impact, however slight in the short term, on things like the quality of fruit produced.

[Growster...]

Very interesting KC and Hamsters.

Going the other way, I would guess that new varieties often took various attributes of older trees and changed the complexities to the detriment of these older varieties, such to the extent of them becoming extinct, or 'not wanted on the voyage'.

Surely, over the years, there must have been some deterioration, due to mistakes made by growers, or uneconomic varieties being overcome by the need to progress. There wouldn't be any point in growing an apple species which was a low cropper, had no taste, and was prone to disease etc.

[Dandelion]

When we moved to our current house in Herefordshire we also bought some heritage apples from Bernwode plants. One was supposed to be a Pigs Nose Pippin, a variety local to the area. It didn't flower or fruit for six years - when it finally produced an apple or two they clearly were not Pigs Nose Pippins. I emailed Bernwode, who never answered. There is an end to the story as yesterday we took three fruits to the Big Apple day near to us, and they were identified as Winter Greening, a variety which goes back before the 1700s. It is a cooking apple, but its claim to fame is that it stores so well that it has been known for apples to keep for two years! So not what we ordered or paid for, but worth having.

[Growster...]

When we moved to our current house in Herefordshire we also bought some heritage apples from Bernwode plants. One was supposed to be a Pigs Nose Pippin, a variety local to the area. It didn't flower or fruit for six years - when it finally produced an apple or two they clearly were not Pigs Nose Pippins. I emailed Bernwode, who never answered. There is an end to the story as yesterday we took three fruits to the Big Apple day near to us, and they were identified as Winter Greening, a variety which goes back before the 1700s. It is a cooking apple, but its claim to fame is that it stores so well that it has been known for apples to keep for two years! So not what we ordered or paid for, but worth having.

Now that seems like a real apple Dands!

Storing for that time is magnificent!