[Dominic]

Yeah mine showed no interest in the garlic I hung up for them, but fresh garlic and powedered garlic dont taste much alike, mine dont actualy get garlic.

[hillfooter]

mine have had garlic and apple cider vinegar and never had a garlic tasting egg yet (I suppose it depends on how much they eat).

I suspect the garlic tasting eggs are a bit of an old wives tale.  The ammount of garlic adding a crushed garlic to their water produces is very small.  maybe if they eat lots it could taint the eggs.

Although lindeggs hasn't sent me the refs on the scientific benefits of ACV I think what is being referred to is that acidifing the blood and urinates is a treatment for kidney stones  (and also for gout).

Kidney stones can arise from:
1 Feeding young growers excess calcium (ie layers feed).  Can cause problems in later life
2 Where kidney damage has occured due to typically an illness like Infectious Bronchitas
3  Excessive calcium is fed over long periods of time

The treatment of choice for kidney stones would be to add ammonium sulfate to their feed.

In a normal healthy bird any excess minerals, calcium included would be filtered out by the kidneys and passed in their urinates.  The danger is if the kidney function is impaired.

Although I've seen it suggested that the acidity in ACV raises gut acidity (a highly acidic environment anyway) I haven't seen anything of a scientific nature which indicates it is of benefit for kidney stones or gout but I could be wrong.

HF

[kegs]

Not a scientifically controlled experiment but ....

Having exhausted every other suggestion I'm giving Limestone Flour to one chicken who was laying soft shelled eggs every night.  She is now laying eggs with harder shells, still delicate, but hard enough that the other chickens don't eat the egg.  The one night she went back to laying a soft shell again was the one day that I gave them Apple cider Vinegar in their water.  So, was it the ACV that reduced the quality of egg shell that night or was it coincidence?

Oh and not a single elephant that night either! 

[hillfooter]

Not a scientifically controlled experiment but ....

Having exhausted every other suggestion I'm giving Limestone Flour to one chicken who was laying soft shelled eggs every night.  She is now laying eggs with harder shells, still delicate, but hard enough that the other chickens don't eat the egg.  The one night she went back to laying a soft shell again was the one day that I gave them Apple cider Vinegar in their water.  So, was it the ACV that reduced the quality of egg shell that night or was it coincidence?

Oh and not a single elephant that night either!  

Although I realise Kegs has tongue in cheek here it does illustrate a phenomena with which psychologists are familiar.  We tend to confuse coincidence with cause.  Obviously there's always a reasonable chance the animal will recover anyway no matter what we do however when it does we always ascribe the cause to the treatment we were giving at the time.  

It's the sort of phenomena which compels us to wear our luck red jumper when we go to watch our team play.  If they win when we are wearing it or lose when we aren't we notice and it reinforces our belief.  If the opposite happens then it doesn't have a similar negative impact in our confidence about our lucky red jumper.  

In this example it's easy to see the nonsense in a causal link, any positive result is plainly just coincidence but in the medication recovery case nothing will convince us other than the treatment was responsible for the good result.  This is why we have to be very careful about accepting anecdotal stories.

Probably there no causal link here between ACV and the hen laying a soft egg we just don't know.

HF

[Ben_H]

Wow,

I don't get to the computer for a few days and lots of info has arrived. Thanks for all the comments

I'm coming at this from a number of directions with garlic and ACV.

Firstly talking to friends and colleagues who have kept hens for a while but also neighbours who have just started recently too (spurring me on to get my own hens) and have been advised by breeders.

Secondly from breeders who've recommended both garlic and ACV.

Garlic:

I've been told that in some people's experience this seems to lessen the smell of the chicken poo. Not sure why but I'm all for this if it works. Some friends have said their hens won't drink garlic'd water but that may be down to having three cloves in a water container rather than the 1 clove that I have started using.

I've also heard that it is generally good for them and some speak of it as a natural wormer which is why I have posted this thread for some confirmation. One friend who suggested the natural wormer has said that they have never had a problem with worms in 8 years despite not using a proprietary wormer. That could be luck, ignorance of a problem or magic garlic!

ACV:

I'm aware of benefits in humans, horses, dogs for arthritis which I think has been medically recommended but don't quote me on that and I haven't time to go searching the web myself. This on it's own is not relevant for chickens however ACV does seem to be recommended by breeders and suppliers (at least 50% of those I spoke to when looking to get hens) and not all of them were trying to sell me some.

Aunt Sallie's chicken info link at the top of the forum hasthis link for ACV: http://www.eden-livestock.co.uk/apple_cider_vinegar_article.htm

It makes a lot of claims and presumably some of them must true or advertising standards would be having words?

Cheers

Ben

[hillfooter]

Wow,

Garlic:

....................I've also heard that it is generally good for them and some speak of it as a natural wormer which is why I have posted this thread for some confirmation. One friend who suggested the natural wormer has said that they have never had a problem with worms in 8 years despite not using a proprietary wormer. That could be luck, ignorance of a problem or magic garlic!

ACV:

I'm aware of benefits in humans, horses, dogs for arthritis which I think has been medically recommended but don't quote me on that and I haven't time to go searching the web myself. This on it's own is not relevant for chickens however ACV does seem to be recommended by breeders and suppliers (at least 50% of those I spoke to when looking to get hens) and not all of them were trying to sell me some.

Aunt Sallie's chicken info link at the top of the forum hasthis link for ACV: http://www.eden-livestock.co.uk/apple_cider_vinegar_article.htm

It makes a lot of claims and presumably some of them must true or advertising standards would be having words?

Cheers

Ben

Garlic a natural wormer?  

Well VermX who produce an organic wormer based on garlic were in 2009 forced by the Advertising Standards Agency to withdraw their claims that it was an effective wormer for a broad spectrum of target species.  VermX offered in their defence a report of a trial conducted on horses by a undergraduate student and the opinion of a vetrinary advisor.   The ASA were unimpressed concluding that VermX had no grounds for their claims. If you look on the VermX website you will see that they make no specific claims for its efficacy selling it mainly on its historic reputation amongst herbalists and the fact it is pure and natural, ie organic.  No evidence or trial results are cited for its value as wormer. Note testamonial endorsements don't constitute scientific proof.  ASA ref 74895 

http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and-ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx

ACV and Trading Standards.  I'm affraid your trust in trading standards is rather naive if you expect them to police every exaggerated claim.
Alternative medicine adherents are careful not to make specific testible claims instead using weasels words such as  "helps with the treatment of ".  Or they use the impressive sounding statements implying the efficacy which are in fact meaningless for example "test results have shown that ....." which begs the question which test results and were they scientifically valid.   Often they quote in vitro (in a test tube) results "kills all known germs" whereas in vivo (in a living organism) the results are much different.  Often no specific claims are made just implied for example "the age old known healing powers of" or the impressive sciencey sounding  "contains xyz, a known constituent of healthy bone tissue", much the same could be said about water.   Such claims are intended to imply efficacy and be misleading without actually being catagoric about it so it would be arguable that they were in fact untrue.
  
HF

[kegs]

I just love these discussions..... even if I don't understand them    :blink:

Hillfooter - don't you ever sleep???

Kerry

[hillfooter]

I just love these discussions..... even if I don't understand them    :blink:

Hillfooter - don't you ever sleep???

Kerry

No

[kegs]

I just love these discussions..... even if I don't understand them    :blink:

Hillfooter - don't you ever sleep???

Kerry

No

I bet it's those elephants keeping you awake !!   

[Ben_H]

Elephants or maybe the white powder? 

[Dominic]

Although I have poultry spice and rooster booster and who knows what else rubbish (no vermX), I also have flubenvet, and the second I suspect worms, I'll be force feeding them it like a foigras farmer does corn....

Obviously, without cruelty...