Poly-tunnels, land use, planning permission, and a couple more questions

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ConfusedGardener

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Hi all,

I'm in the process of buying a property in Carmathenshire, Wales that includes a useful chunk of land on which I'd like to erect a pair of poly-tunnels, and am looking for advice on the best way to accomplish this.

The property has a large lawn. with some scrub at the sides (some of which I plan to clear to make way for the poly-tunnels) and a stream boundary at the bottom. The bottom of the lawn, near to the stream is where I am planning on putting up the poly-tunnels since that is the part of the property that will get the most sun.

As far as I know that part of the property is not registered as agricultural land, and the property is not registered as a smallholding.

The poly-tunnels I'd like to put up are 14 x 56 and 8.2 feet high (from "First Tunnels").

As far as I can tell I won't need any planning permission to erect them, but I will probably speak to the local planning authority anyway and of course my neighbors. The property is well screened from the neighbors and I was told by the sellers of the property that they had a poly-tunnel there previously without any problems, although I'm not sure how big it was.

I don't plan to sell any produce at first, but would like to once I have some experience.

I was originally going to ask mainly about planning permission, but it seems, after another look that I should be within the guidelines. My main question instead is, should I register as a smallholding right away once I have moved in? I know I will have to eventually, but would there be any benefit in doing so sooner rather than later?

I know the water table is quite high, and I will probably have to put in some pipes to drain the land, but I'm not sure where they should be laid in relation to the poly-tunnels? Also, I'm not sure where the excess water would drain to. I could (I suppose?) lay a pipe down to the stream, but rather than waste the water, I've been considering having some kind of reservoir where I could store it and use it to water the poly-tunnels. Ideally I'd like to combine the reservoir with a fish pond, but I'm not sure how feasible this would be.

I am hoping to get the poly-tunnels up in time for next season, but winter is almost here and it may be as long as a month before the move. Is there a chance I could be up and running in time for the next growing season?

Apart from these questions, any comments or tips would be more than welcome.

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John

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My experience, for what it's worth, is that the plans you make before you move are often wrong. If you can, take some time to gain a real feel for the place before investing too much.
I'm pretty unsure what benefits there are to registering as a smallholding. In some ways you're better off with a 'garden' - especially planning re the tunnels.
I'd be tempted to drain the water into a sump and thence pump into storage (maybe a couple of thousand litres) allowing the excess to drain off. I'm told some days it doesn't rain in Wales!
Also, be prepared for extra expenses if it's an old house. We went so far over budget it was like an episode of Grand Designs.. and that was an old cow shed!
If you're looking to make a living or a contribution to your income from the tunnels beyond providing food for your family then rather than selling produce, consider making things from your produce. Carmarthen chilli mustard? Or preserves.
I know we made some errors - for example, I didn't insulate the loft until after the first winter (2010 with -15 one day). Fitted a kitchen and tiled the floor only to realise it would have been good to look at insulating the floor.
Croeso y Gymru
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John and Val Harrison's Books
 

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ConfusedGardener

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Thank you for the reply John.

I will certainly keep what you said in mind. I like your idea for adding value to the produce, and the sump.

I am looking forward to the challenge, but there are so many things to think about and consider.

Thank you again.


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John

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You're very welcome :)

I don't know your background, but if like us you were townies, you'll find so many things you don't expect in the countryside. For example, when you've 5 builders merchants and DIY sheds within a 5 minute drive picking up a bag of nails is a 20 minute job. Here it would take an hour and a half!

People moan about gas prices - they don't know they're born. Try LPG or Oil heating and that's a bill and a half.

On the other side of the coin, you can live in the town for years and hardly speak to the neighbours from the other side of the semi. Here we met more neighbours in 8 weeks than we did in the town in 8 years. And they're happy to have their brains picked.

You'll be very busy, but do take some time out to just enjoy where you are.

You get used to it, we plan carefully and a trip into town is made to pay for itself.

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Trillium

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Further to John's comments, don't be in a huge rush to put up buildings, paths and things. Get a feel for the area for at least a year before you spend or do. As said, you need to find the natural rhythm of the place eg where it seems more natural to put paths, where unexpected high wind areas are, perhaps unplanned wind breaks are needed, where better garden areas are hiding, etc. Did that with my place and laughed in the end as the 'natural' placements weren't exactly as I'd planned on paper, but in the end were far more practical.

Same with interiors. We had no idea we had ants in the house until the first summer. They literally crawled all over us as we watched telly. Lounge renovations moved up a year and sealing off all ant entries was #1 priority. followed by removing a huge, very drafty window that was hot in summer and very cold in winter. Lost a lot of light but it's paid off well since, particularly as we had to replace exterior siding in that area anyway. It's way cheaper to do a job once than twice.

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ConfusedGardener

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Thanks for the advice/feedback once again John and Trillium,

My partner and I have always been townies, but in my case at least, the countryside has always been very close to my heart, and my partner is not far behind.

There have already been a few surprises that we were not expecting being townies. The main one was finding out that our private water supply was actually just off our property.

We don't want to rush, but we want to get at least one poly-tunnel up for next season, and it'll be more or less in the same spot where the previous owners had theirs, which we were told was a great success. So I think at least that will follow the natural rhythm of the place.

Apart from that, we will take our time and get to know the place before we make any big decisions. I've already made some rough plans of the garden layout, but I expect that they will evolve (at least a bit) before we commit to anything.

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Trillium

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One thing about polytunnels is are you planning to put it in the exact spot and use the same soil? Because rotation would be a nightmare as would inheriting any plant diseases that might be lurking.

As for the water, ohhhh, bad luck! Is it actually supplied by someone? Or a place your property is simply tapped into? Best to get things in writing over that one or it will bite you in the future. We spent a bit extra on legal fees to sort out a boundary dispute and we've not regretted it when owners on the other side tried to claim the land as theirs. Our rights were legally notorized and recorded in the county offices; theirs were only approximations from an owner hot to dump his too small property. It's saved me a small fortune in legal battles and surveying.

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John

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The water thing isn't uncommon here, Trillium. His solicitor will have (should have) it covered. A couple of places we looked at had the water supply on other people's land.

I'm sure you'll love it in the countryside - after a year you'll wonder how you ever coped in a town. I mean they're so rude - I went to London last week and nobody returned my 'Good Afternoon' They all just walk around with hearing aids muttering to themselves. The only good thing was they gave me a free newspaper at the station (only one sadly), but great for starting the fire.

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Trillium

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Oh, that's terrible about the water. Over here water is everything. Rural properties that don't have their own wells are like dead elephants to sell. Unworked properties are often conditional to buy if water can be found first.

Hate to seem picky on the legal angle, but some lawyers don't always notice these small things. Our solicitor didn't notice the property shortage until I pointed it out to him at paper signing time, then they went to bat for us (should have been on the ball in the first place). The solicitors for the property purchasers next to us (there were a few) didn't notice at all and the owners were hot to come after me because they didn't double check with their solicitors, as if I was somehow to blame. Nowt so strange as folk.  ;)

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ConfusedGardener

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It's been a few years since the previous poly-tunnel was there. I don't know exactly how many, but where it was is now lawn, and there are no signs that one was ever there, so my guess is at least 2-3 years if not more.

I was planning to use at least some of the soil that's already there if possible, but depending on the soil type I know I'll probably have to dig in some amendments and compost if I can find some at short notice. Also considering a green manure (I have some clover seed that needs using) but not sure if there will be enough time, or even if it's a good idea to sow so late in the year.

We had a survey done which is how we found out about the water source, and our conveyancers have assured us that everything is in order in terms of us having access to the water source, and also (as John says) that it's not uncommon to have this type of arrangement over here. They have been quite helpful in answering our questions and addressing our concerns overall.

The source is actually a well (or borehole? I'm not exactly sure) about 10 or 15 feet from the boundary of our property in the neighbouring field, and perhaps 30-50 feet from the stream. Either way it's free water (apart from maintenance costs obviously), and is acceptable for drinking, although the level of nitrates is not as good as it could have been. I intend to look into it some more to find out if the level of nitrates may have unwanted effects on the garden - I'd like to be as "organic" as possible.

We were also a bit concerned about our boundaries, and because it didn't seem to be clear exactly how much acreage we were getting, but I think we have worked out exactly what is what now with a bit of help from our conveyancers.

Luckily the majority of the boundaries are obvious since the land owners either side have kept their boundaries free from overgrowth, except towards the bottom end of the property where the stream is. That's where the boundaries are slightly fuzzy, but it's only a small scrubby area of land that we will probably leave to nature anyhow.

I think it's reasonably clear where the boundary lies on the plan of the plot that was supplied to us, which I think is going to be submitted to the land registry when the property is registered at completion. Our conveyancers are taking care of that for us.

I think the completion date is going to be set at the 5th of November, and the others in the chain are all "anxious" to get a move on, so hopefully it won't be long now. I'm having to pinch myself to check that we are actually moving in a few days/weeks - it feels a bit surreal. I wonder how long the feeling will last? I think we'll have to start packing tomorrow!

Thanks again for taking the time, and for sharing your thoughts Trillium and John.

Please do keep the replies coming, as all the comments have been helpful so far, even if "only" to make sure there is nothing major that has been overlooked.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 03:01 by ConfusedGardener »

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Trillium

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Sounds like you've paid sharp attention to the details and should do fine. I'm totally awed by just how many incompetent legal people there are and how so many folk simply don't pay attention and assume the legal people will catch everything. But don't. Glad you're set.

Other than amendments to the soil, you should be okay on the same spot then for the polytunnel. And green manuring is good if you can time it right.

If you can't manage much else with the water, check around for good in-house water filtration units to remove nitrates and nitrites. There are a few excellent ones out there that aren't cheap but far cheaper than a new well or whatever route you might have to take. And yes, you'd want to avoid those for organic food as veggies don't discriminate. They draw from whatever is available.

Have you considered an orchard yet? Or is there an existing one you can rehabilitate? I planted mine reasonably soon after moving in because they do take a few years to be productive. Provided a late frost doesn't drop in and kill all the blossoms  >:( As for good varieties, ask locals what grows best in your area. That's why so many were developed.

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John

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If the polytunnel area hasn't been used for a few years, then the soil should be OK. Since you'll intensively grow in there, it could be worth laying in raised beds and loads of compost.

Another tip for you - when buying tools, spend like a drunken sailor. It really is worth it as you'll be giving them hard use for years. I bought an SDS drill which is expensive compared with a normal hammer drill but it whizzes through granite. A lithium battery portable screwdriver is fabulous. I've 2 cheap cordless drills gone to the tip because the battery only held charge for minutes in the end.
And my Sneerboer fork (a pressie) is disgustingly expensive at £94 but a joy to use. I've left it to the sprog in my will - it'll outlast me!

And as Trillium says - "As for good varieties, ask locals what grows best in your area. That's why so many were developed."

I don't know if you're in a Welsh speaking area, but if so just a few words go a long way to showing you respect the culture and making friends with the natives :)

Finally, when dealing with Welsh farmers, keep in mind that they've bargaining skills that would make a hedge fund manager blush. After shaking hands with them, count your fingers!

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grinling

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Check with planning dept for polytunnel, Charlie had his for 5 years before new local person moved in and complained (very big polytunnel) and he had to apply for planning retro.

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ConfusedGardener

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Trillium - Yes, it's amazing that people take such risks with what in most cases is probably the biggest purchase of their lifetime. Caveat emptor, as it said in the info pack sent to us by our conveyancers.

An orchard is one of the things that's high on our list of priorities. There are at least two apple trees (I think) already on the property, but they look very old (and tall - perhaps 30+ feet). I'm not sure if they are worth keeping.

I was originally thinking about screening off the part of the garden where the poly-tunnels are going to be with something ornamental, but instead I'm considering putting in a double row of fruit trees, with rows of fruit bushes (gooseberries, raspberries, etc ) in the middle. As well as screening off the poly-tunnels I'm thinking it would also act as a wind break.

On top of that, I'd also like to try growing some trees in the poly-tunnels. I suspect figs would do well, and I've been collecting lychee seeds, although I have no idea if they would work. I'll definitely ask around to see what the locals recommend, but I'll also have to do a bit of experimentation.

John - Raised beds are something I've been considering, but I think I'll simply pile the soil into a mound rather than surround the soil with something like wood.

Thanks for the tools tip. I was actually planning to ask what people on here would recommend as a basic "stater kit" of tools.

So far my list looks like this:
Rotavator
Chainsaw
Fork/spade

and there's a tool that I can't remember the name of that's a bit like a pic.

I'll also keep the things you said about the locals in mind :) So far the majority of people that we have run into in the area are from across the border. As far as language goes, I have to admit I struggle to even get the place names right. Languages were never my strong point, but I'll have to try and learn a few basic words/phrases at least.

grinling - Thanks for the reply/advice. I do intend to contact the local planning authority and run my plans by them. I'm hoping that it won't be a problem though, as the property is screened by trees very well from the neighbouring properties.

I'm surprised to learn that someone new can move in and make a complaint about an already existing structure. I wonder if Charlie's poly-tunnel was outside the local planning authority guidelines to begin with? Even so, it does sound a little unfair!

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Trillium

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'and there's a tool that I can't remember the name of that's a bit like a pic.'

Are you thinking of an asada? It's a very useful tool.



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