Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => General Gardening => Topic started by: glamourpuss on May 28, 2007, 14:00
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Can anyone help me to identify this large deciduous shrub/tree that grows in the non-vegetable part of my garden? It was well established when I moved in 18 months ago, and has been flourishing ever since.
The foliage is quite a bright acid green, the new growth has quite acer-like leaves, but the established growth is less divided. Large round buds appear around February, quickly developing little red feathery 'ears'. These become the flowers, which a friend described as 'upright bunches of grapes' :) yellowish-green, with red stems. The old stems are quite woody, though new growth is sappy and has grown from the base of the plant.
Hopefully some photos will appear below! :D
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z67/zoelowe1/mysteryplant2.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z67/zoelowe1/mysteryplant4.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z67/zoelowe1/mysteryplant5.jpg)
I've had various gardening friends trying to suss this one out for a while now, and have been browsing garden centres and catalogues with no success :( . I am hopeful that someone can enlighten me! :idea: :D
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Are you sure they are the same plant and not just planted in the same space :?:
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Pretty sure they are the same plant, I did wonder though whether the plant might be grafted and the new growth coming from the rootstock below the graft? :?:
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Just braved the rain and gales to go outside and have another look. The 'frillier'-edged leaves appear on the new growth throughout the plant, not just that shooting from the base.
Apologies if the descriptions are a little vague - I'm only on module 2 of my Horticulture course and not quite up on all the technical terminology yet! :lol:
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:shock: You're studying horticulture :!:
We should be asking you the questions :roll:
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yep - 'studying' though, only just started really! Still much to learn.
It's only a distance learning course, nothing that impressive. And besides, the friend I asked to identify this mystery plant (with no success) has already passed the course! :roll:
The course may not be so good for plant identification then, but it's something to do when it's too dark/cold/wet to garden!
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The bottom picture looks like a completely different plant, the leaves are a completely different shape. That said the top one looks a bit like a tree I had in my garden when I moved in, no idea what it is though! Mine went really red in late season, very pretty, but it was also very destructive, throwing up new shoots all over the place including under the block brick driveway, raising the bricks, so I dug it out.
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The 'frillier'-edged leaves appear on the new growth throughout the plant, not just that shooting from the base.
Sorry to seem so distrusting GP (especially with you a budding horticulturalist). When the rain stops can you take a picture with both types of leaf on the same stem :?:
I know eucalyptus and ivy have two types of leaf, so you could well be very right, still don't know what it is though :roll:
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ok, have left the picture big so it is hopefully clear...
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z67/zoelowe1/mp6.jpg)
You can just make out the older, darker wood from which the less frilly leaves grow (and was the stem on which the flowers appeared) , sprouting from which at the top of the piccy is the new growth with the frilly leaves!
Thanks for the responses so far :)
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The 'frillier'-edged leaves appear on the new growth throughout the plant, not just that shooting from the base.
Sorry to seem so distrusting GP (especially with you a budding horticulturalist). When the rain stops can you take a picture with both types of leaf on the same stem :?:
I know eucalyptus and ivy have two types of leaf, so you could well be very right, still don't know what it is though :roll:
The angle of the bottom picture makes it dificult to see the formation of the leaves, could we also have a close up of the flower/fruiting bodies? Thanks.
Oliver with his thinking cap on
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ok, have left the picture big so it is hopefully clear...
Thanks for the responses so far :)
This picure went up while I was thinking, thanks! but still need you to to post a picture of the flower part! Thanks
O
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Well I'll be jiggered (whatever that is - no answers please) Think I'm going to have to brows through my gardening books :!:
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Hi Oliver, here is a pic of the remains of the flower part (obviously the flowers themselves are well over by now). When the flowers were out, they were bright acid yellow-green, clustered on the red stems shown as skeletons in the photo below.
Hope it's not too blurred to help you, my digi camera is not the most advanced!
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z67/zoelowe1/mp7.jpg)
The neighbours must now think me even more insane, running out into the rain and snapping repeated shots of the same plant!! :lol:
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Well, that leaves me none the wiser! The big set of leaves in the picture look like plum leaves, and the fruits look like our plum (greengage) tree, although your branchlets are red(!) but the feathery jobs leave me totally flummoxed. I will watch this space with interest but continue to think.
O
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you can often get what is known as a "sport". this often occurs on, say, a varigated tree when one or branches reverty back to the original non varigated form. if the less frilly leaves are coming from within the same area as the other type, then i would think that is what has happened here, or, as you wrote, it has grown from the grafting area.
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I'd thought it was a Sambucus. But I can't find one with both leaf shapes, and they generally have white or pink flowers :?
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i will show this thread to our nursery manager on the morn, i'm sure the rounder type of leaf shouldn't be there. i'll laugh like a drain if he don't know what it is either! :lol:
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Please do gwiz. I have to know what is is now :roll:
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you can often get what is known as a "sport". ...
Hi Gwiz - that is what crossed my mind too, particularly as it looks like a plum, but what do 'they' graft plums onto that have frilly leaves? I know a man who knows these things, so I will ask him.
Meanwhile, night night
O
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Hey, Oliver, good to 'see' you back!!!!!
As to the mystery plant, I don't know about the feathery bits, but the other leaves and the red stems with the little 'fruits' look like elderberry, although at the moment, the elderberry is in flower not fruiting, could it be a relative of the elder?
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That's what I think grannie. Sambucus = Elder
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What colour are the berries when fully ripe?
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it could be a species of rhus
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Thanks for all the replies so far! Some kind of sambucus does seem to be a likely suspect - google images shows a couple of varieties that have similar leaf shape and colour, and it certainly seems to have the thuggish qualities of an elder!
In response to David, I think the berries stay yellow/green when ripe, pretty much as they are at the moment. They certainly don't go black like elderberries (or red).
If it's any help, I think the most distinctive part of the plant are the flower buds - they swell up to nearly the size of a marble before unfurling two bright red, feathered 'ears' in their early development. Wish I had taken some photos of them back in Feb/March!
Apologies to those of you who this plant is infuriating, but it's nice to know it's not something totally obvious that I have missed! Whoever planted this garden up seems to have had a taste for the slightly unusual, as there are two pomegranates planted in the borders as well! :?
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That's what I think grannie. Sambucus = Elder
Hello Grannieannie - I have been hre all along, watching, but been a but she has been a bit tied up so its been hard to get her to put my messages up! Now its stopped raining she will probably be out on the plot again ... so I had better make the most of things.
I don' t think the plant is an elder because the description of the flowers is nothing like an elder! But what - Steve probably knows. I will post again if I find out!!
O
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your plant is .......
Sambucus 'Pluosa Aurea' the rounder type of leaf is an oddity that shouldn't be there.
hope this helps, i put it to the best minds at our nursery, who scratched their heads, chins and other bits, went out side, and matched it up with some of our shrubs out there. im looking at one of the lables here, and it is an exact match for your plant. :D
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your plant is .......
Sambucus 'Pluosa Aurea' the rounder type of leaf is an oddity that shouldn't be there :D
Yay! Well done, and thanks. I can go back to my roof then ...
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In response to David, I think the berries stay yellow/green when ripe, pretty much as they are at the moment. They certainly don't go black like elderberries (or red)
I was also thinking Sambucus Racemosa (but 'Sutherland Gold' rather than 'Plumosa Aurea'), but I'm afraid they both have red berries, thus my querying the colour when ripe.
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your plant is .......
Sambucus 'Pluosa Aurea' the rounder type of leaf is an oddity that shouldn't be there.
Thanks gwiz. I was fairly sure it was a Sambucus. Are the rounder leaves a genetic mutation or a revertion to the wild type leaf. Should they be cut out ?
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cut them out. :D
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Brilliant, thanks everybody! :D You have put many minds at rest, and has cheered me up after having to leave my dog at the animal hospital this afternoon. :(
Thanks for all your efforts!
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Sorry Auntie, didn't look at my book, didn't realise Sambuca and Elder were the same thing. Also didn't realise there were so many Sambucas!!!!
Hey Oliver, you want to watch that shed roof gets slippery after its been raining, that's if you are getting any rain? It's hardly stopped here since Saturday!!!! I've run out of places to store the water, I need a reservoir!!
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didn't realise Sambuca and Elder were the same thing. Also didn't realise there were so many Sambucas!!!!
We got it right though didn't we Grannie :D
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... Hey Oliver, you want to watch that shed roof gets slippery after its been raining, that's if you are getting any rain? It's hardly stopped here since Saturday!!!! I've run out of places to store the water, I need a reservoir!!
While all this rain and wind and cold has been going on I have been staying on the chair indoors! The Other-one has been too.
She has been collecting water in buckets (found a leak in the poly roof!), but forgot to bring her toms in from hardening off. Rain softened the potting compost, wind blew them all horizontal and actually snapped one off. Fortunately only one. Rest will be sold on Saturday for HortSoc funds if they stand up! - one less thing to worry about. All we need now is a bit o sun and everything will romp away - especially the weeds I suppose! Nice to talk to you again hope the dog has learned the difference between a pumpkin and a tennis ball.
Oliver :lol:
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I would hazard a guess at Sambucus racemosa "Tenuifolium". If not something more exotic! I've seen it before at the garden centre I used to work at, but can't be 100% sure of the name.
I finished my diploma in Horticulture 14 yrs ago and am what you'd call "rusty". The frilly foliage is the juvenile growth.
I'll dust mt plant books out and get a 2nd opinion from hubby when he's home. :)
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(quote from Oliver): hope the dog has learned the difference between a pumpkin and a tennis ball.)
It was a melon actually, but that's not a bad memory for a senior pussycat!!!! :lol: :lol: But we'll have to see how she is this year with the melons and I've actually got a pumpkin plant too!!!!