Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Growing => Growing FAQs and other Information => Topic started by: Gwiz on May 31, 2008, 07:27

Title: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Gwiz on May 31, 2008, 07:27
We get free manure at our allotment.
and usually it's all good stuff.
the latest batch, however, has some chemical in it which has caused wilting and dying off of my spuds.
we sent some of the spuds and manure off to wisley for analysis, who confirm it's the manure that has caused the problem.
the other plot holders who it has happened to, are displeased as well.....
oh well, still time to put in some extra beans, I suppose. :roll:
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on June 15, 2008, 16:02
I've renamed the topic because so many people are being hit with this problem this year and it will be easier to find.

Apparently some new herbicide is being used for dockleaves and other weeds in straw and possibly silage so it's getting into the manure and thence continues its work It seems to affect a wide range of crops, potatoes, beans, tomatoes.

One chap nearby to me says his plot is half dead. The half that was manured.

This is really serious for all home growers and ironically more so for organic growers who are more dependent on manure for their fertility.

There is another question - are the partially affected crops safe to eat?

Since most of us source our manure from normal farmers who could be inadvertantly supplying poisonous manure and the organic farmers don't tend to dispose of their manure we could all be having to think hard about how we grow now.

Anyone with more info (thanks gobs for your input) and suggestions how to handle this, please post.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Gwiz on June 15, 2008, 18:57
According to the farmers weekly, the chemical is called Aminopyralid. It is the active ingredient to: Forefront, Halcyon and GF839.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: gobs on June 15, 2008, 20:43
Not at all, John, we were just starting to look into this when Gwiz posted, since then it got confirmed, someone spoke with the farmer, don't know the details yet.

The two active ingredients, aminopyralid or clopyralid seem to be different in consequences, or we just have more experiences of the latter? :?

Somewhat good news, Gwiz, if crop - if any - harmless, not looking tempting, mind. :shock:  :lol:
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on June 16, 2008, 00:00
I've heard 2nd hand that this chemical is a selective weed killer and that it passes through the cow and is present in the manure (poo rather than the straw)

Anybody else heard this? Anyone know if the soil association or HDRA have any info?
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Weessy on June 23, 2008, 21:52
Just read this article in the yorkshire post online, LINK (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Gardeners-warned-over-manure-poison.4209491.jp)

After having problems with my potatoes, manured, my raspberries, mulched with manure and my runner beans, manure in a large pit under the wigwam, I am getting a bit worried. Does anybody know if or where you can get analysis done? I am a member of garden organic Ryton, was wondering if they might be able to help.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on June 29, 2008, 11:51
I've spent some time looking into this and have been helped by NVS member Dave Hampsey (he's a fantastic grower and has contacts everywhere) - just put up an article about it.

LINKAminopyralid Herbicide Residue in Manure Killing Crops (http://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-diary/257/aminopyralid-herbicide-residue-in-manure-killing-crops/)
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on June 29, 2008, 12:29
Thanks for that and your informative article.

Now we know what we're dealing with and have some ideas of what to do about it. Precious little, I'm afraid.

I'd describe our chances of getting it withdrawn as poor. Maybe if we had millions to spend we'd have a chance. Don't be surprised if Dow start selling a test kit to detect the damn stuff.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on June 29, 2008, 13:39
Hi John, It would be good if they could test for the stuff but according to the Pesticide Safety Directorate it is too difficult, too costly and inconclusive! It is a worry that organic farms may have inadvertently sold contaminated manure isn't it?

By the way I put a link to your piece from our webpage too. The more publicity we can get the better - at least gardeners will know to think twice before buying manure.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on June 29, 2008, 14:03
What's worrying is how powerful it is - the usage rate is 5L per hectare - that's 0.005ml per square metre. One 5ml teaspoon will kill weeds over 10 square metres.

No wonder a 'very low level' residue kills off a plot. It would be nice if we could get some firm information on how long before it was safe.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: string bean on July 12, 2008, 17:49
I have a compost bin crammed full of manure which my spuds and runners tell me is causing problems.  How long, I wonder, will it need to stand before it is deemed safe?
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 13, 2008, 09:28
Quote from: "string bean"
I have a compost bin crammed full of manure which my spuds and runners tell me is causing problems.  How long, I wonder, will it need to stand before it is deemed safe?


2 or 3 years.

You could try putting it on a patch of ground and rotovating it in, repeating the rotovation a few times. This lets the microbes in the soil get at it and break it down. Then it may be OK for next year. May be.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on July 13, 2008, 12:17
PSD update says affected veg are safe to eat
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2480
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 13, 2008, 20:49
Quote from: "glallotments"
PSD update says affected veg are safe to eat
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2480


Appreciate you posting the update link.

Many people grow their own because they want to grow organically and eat food without residues in them - no matter how safe the government say eating the residues are.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: gobs on July 13, 2008, 21:25
From link above:

'PSD has now assessed additional information from the manufacturer that confirms that using manure, which may contain residues of aminopyralid, does not have implications for human health.

Based on reasonable worst case assumptions: that cattle are only fed grass, or silage made from grass, treated with aminopyralid; that vegetables are grown in soil mixed with manure produced from the animals; and that all the aminopyralid released from the manure is taken up into the plants; the highest residues would not be a concern for health, so vegetables should be safe to eat.'

Ain't that a load of balls?

The manufacturer would say that, they are making profit on it. Who in their sane mind would consider their view as an independent scientific opinion? By the by, defra has got its fair share and financial interest in the trade of agro-chemicals.

Worst case assumptions as stated does not exist on the ground, that statement presents complete ignorance or negligence or both, as luck would have it they just can't exist like that. Much less accumulation and contamination results in complete death of plants or no crop whatsoever. So as such, it is rather safe on that level as there is nought to consume.

 :!:
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 13, 2008, 21:45
Nicely said, Gobs.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 14, 2008, 23:42
Most everything I know, updates etc are in my diary
http://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-diary/257/aminopyralid-herbicide-residue-in-manure-killing-crops/
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: gobs on July 15, 2008, 07:22
Plenty of concerned replies there, but what I found is rather disappointing. This article from 2001 might put it into perspective, what one can expect.

They 'have been trying hard' ever since to address the problem, with the known results.

LINK (http://www.jgpress.com/BCArticles/2001/070125.html)
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 15, 2008, 09:11
This is a different chemical, introduced 2006 - similar results.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: gobs on July 15, 2008, 12:51
Yes, rather similar.

News back from our farmers, yes, they used it - I don't know, all those who didn't  :roll:  - , according to label, had no idea about this problem until we mentioned. Apparently, only new, improved label contains this info, purchused since the first problems last year.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 17, 2008, 13:52
Another option - maybe - would be to spread the manure on a patch of soil and rotovate it in. Then sow a green manure (mustard would be my choice) and rotovate that in. Repeat. Repeat.

In a heap, even turned, you could be looking at 2/3 years. You could try stacking alternate layers of manure / soil but I've no real idea how much if any this would help.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 21, 2008, 23:43
When I read up on pesticide residues in eggs, the Soil Association had a report saying a number had residues including substances not approved for use on laying hens.

I think the government test something like 1 in a million - maybe it was 30 million. Whatever, it was a very very small percentage. Reassuring isn't it?
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 24, 2008, 14:01
I'm seeing some reports that it's had its licence suspended and has been withdrawn from the market.

I must say this is brilliant news, if true, but the toxic manure problem is likely to be with us for some years yet. Even in every farmer stops using his stock (possible, I suppose) then it is still in the system. Cattle are still eating and excreting this chemical. It could take 3 years to de-activate in a manure pile.

I’ve seen no official announcement on the PSD web site or DOW website.

Anyone with firm info - please let us know.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on July 25, 2008, 20:40
John,
Yes it is true.

From the Hansard: link http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080722/text/80722w0009.htm

 The manufacturer has indicated that they are withdrawing products which contain aminopyralid from sale and PSD is formally suspending their authorisations while they investigate the options for preventing a recurrence of this problem. A key issue in their consideration will be whether the conditions of use regarding manure are sufficient, or sufficiently well known.

This implies it is temporary to me - don't know what you think and also I agree totally with your comments about the after effects so still a lot of publicity needs giving to the problem. Also I think it is not enough to withdraw a chemical if lessons haven't been learned about monitoring use so that we don't end up in the same position again.

Must also say that if it hadn't been for forums such as your publicising the isssue and others this problem may well have continued unmentioned so well done you!!
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on July 27, 2008, 12:16
Latest John:
Latest PSD update: http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/approvals.asp?id=2501

Partial quote:

PSD has already confirmed that using manure, which may contain residues of aminopyralid, does not have implications for human health. However, in response to the concerns of allotment holders and leisure gardeners about damage believed to result from these residues, PSD has been in contact with Dow AgroSciences Limited, the approval holder and data owner for the majority of aminopyralid products approved in the UK. Dow AgroSciences have asked for their approvals to be modified whilst the situation is under investigation.

PSD has accepted this and amended the approval of all products containing aminopyralid to suspend the approval for sale, supply, and use with immediate effect whilst further investigations are undertaken.

Storage is unaffected and it remains legal and safe for these products to be stored by anyone.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 27, 2008, 13:41
Thanks for the heads up, appreciated.

I just wish it wasn't already out there. (Ten page rant against DEFRA and the EU removed because life's too short)
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on July 28, 2008, 10:53
This ability to share information quickly is one real benefit of the internet - isolated growers may think they've been unlucky or got some weedkiller left in the watering can etc. Once people realise lots of others have the same problem then the cause becomes obvious.

I'm sure the pressure from across the country by people who know they are not alone has caused this change. I must admit I'm surprised, the huge money involved made cynical old me convinced we'd not get very far but this is a good result.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on September 12, 2008, 19:07
The Pesticide Safety Directorate have issued a new update
PSD update (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2529)
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 01, 2011, 12:03
Hi peapod - I've re-written this post, hopefully removing the contentious bits. Let's try again!...


A few months ago I spent some days getting what I thought was really nice well-rotted manure from a well-run local stables (over 50 sacks of the stuff). It was spread liberally over the allotment that my wife has been working so hard on, and on our new front garden, in preparation for planting - and all over our vegetable plot in the back garden.
The allotment potatoes came up - but they looked diseased. Last night I googled it and guess what I have found!.... Yes, Dow 'AgroScience', your product is in my manure and therefore throughout my land.

My allotment is ruined, my new front garden is ruined and the vegetable plot in my back garden is ruined. Yes, manure contaminated with the Dow 'AgroScience' product aminopyralid is still around in May 2011 and it's still wrecking peoples' hard work. If this happened in the USA Dow 'AgroScience' would be facing a class action lawsuit, with the prospect of forking out huge sums of money in compensation.

Potatoes are not the only things to have been affected. Many other plants have either died, or not come up, or are just sitting weakly in the ground.

Having read posts elsewhere, I cannot justify eating any crop I have grown, for fear of the consequences. 'Dow' says that their herbicide is pretty harmless to humans, but how can I trust the statements of a company that put this herbicide on the market in the way it did? What I mean is that it's not hard to see that if you allow AMINOPYRALID into horse pastures, or into fields that will be used for straw for horse bedding IT WILL GET INTO HORSE MANURE. If it gets into horse manure, inevitably it gets into allotments and gardens.

So, did Dow 'AgroScience' fail to do their research properly (or even their basic thinking), in which case they would be responsible, or did they put the product onto the market KNOWING what the consequences would be, in which case they would also be responsible. Either way, Dow 'AgroScience' should take responsibilty for their actions.

I would like to start, or join a campaign if one already exists, to encourage Dow to take responsibility for the damage their product has caused.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: mumofstig on May 01, 2011, 12:39
The license has strict regulations about how/where to use it, and the farmers should not be selling straw grown on fields that have been sprayed.
So it seems to me that it's the farmers who sold the bales of straw to the stables who are fault in this sad chain of events.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 01, 2011, 13:29
The license has strict regulations about how/where to use it, and the farmers should not be selling straw grown on fields that have been sprayed.
So it seems to me that it's the farmers who sold the bales of straw to the stables who are fault in this sad chain of events.

Yes, you may be right - but as the manure was well-rotted, the herbicide may have been applied before the regulations were tightened up. Also, it may actually have been applied to the horses' pasture - I don't know yet because I haven't spoken to the owner of the stables yet. Think I'll pluck up the courage to send her a text.

Personally, I still hold the manufacturer responsible. They should never have made a product available that can have this effect when distributed in the time-honoured, standard way of picking up a bit of manure from your local stables.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 02, 2011, 11:28
It gives me no pleasure to add to this sad topic. The problem still exists in May 2011 - fresh (well rotted) horse manure on my allotment has wrecked it.  >:(

I'll be writing to my MP.

I've already written to Dow Agrosciences with several questions, via their UK 'hotline', but as it's Bank Holiday they won't have read it yet.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: John on May 02, 2011, 23:41
Even if this hadn't had its license restored, the effects would have continued through 2013. I've repeatedly warned about it in my newsletter, books and diary but sadly it is still a surprise to people.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: realfood on May 03, 2011, 21:13
Having suffered from aminopyralid in manure 2 years ago, and having been involved in the campaign to have the ban continued with the support of my MP, I understand how angry you will be. Yours is the first report that I have heard of this year, but I fear that there will be many more.
Firstly write to your MP asking for their support.
Second, complain to Dow and ask them to take away any manure that has not been dug in.
Third, contact this site http://glallotments.co.uk/ACManure.aspx and get them to add this instance of contamination to to list to warn people that this is still a very real problem.
It is a bit late now for you, but for others who are planning to get in manure, ALWAYS DO THE BEAN TEST FIRST BEFORE YOU SPREAD ANY MANURE ON THE GROUND. You will save yourself so much heartache.
From my experience, you are quite right that courgettes are affected adversely by aminopyralid, as are all the other curcurbits, especially winter squash.
It is not the straw that is the problem, as aminopyralid has never been licensed for use on cereals. It is in the hay or silage that has been fed to the animals.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 05, 2011, 21:39

I had confirmation today that the manure I used on my allotment was contaminated with a hebicide called 'Forefront'. It had been sprayed onto horses' pasture 3 years ago, to kill nettles etc. Bad news, but at least it's definite.

Update - Dow Agrosciences (the manufacturers of the product) have just offered to do several things to help mitigate the disaster on my allotment - and are therefore taking some responsibility, as they should, but in my opinion they should go a lot further to compensate the many allotment holders who have been devastated by this chemical disaster.

I hope this never happens to you.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Kristen on May 06, 2011, 11:23
You have my sympathy, but I disagree with your statement "but in my opinion they should go a lot further to compensate the many allotment holders who have been devastated by this chemical disaster."

The farmer should never have sold the hay to the stables, and the stables should have become aware from the press (at some time in the last three years) that there was a potential problem that they should be careful about. It was reported in Farmers Weekly in November 2007 (and probably at other times since then too)

As you have found out that the grass was treated with Forefront then someone you have spoken to must know that that product specifically was used, and they must therefore have seen the label when the chemical was used. That label, at that time, was absolutely clear about the side effects and the responsibility of farmers to inform recipients of hay, silage, manure, slurry etc.

I posted the instructions, verbatim, from the label in another forum in 2008.  Here's a copy:

"Manure and Slurry Management

Do not use animal waste (e.g. manure or slurry) from animals fed on grass treated with Forefront, of fodder resulting from grass treated with Forefront, on susceptible crops e.g. peas, beans and other legumes, sugar beet, carrots and umbelliferae, potatoes and tomatoes, lettuce and other compositae, or land intended for growing such crops.

If grass, hay, silage, manure or slurry is exported off your farm, it is your responsibility to inform the recipient of this information
"

(the boldfacing is mine)

The farm has had three years (during which time knowledge of the issue in the farming industry has become increasingly commonplace) to make the stables aware of the potential problem ...

As others have said, Dow has obtained a licence for this product under current regulations, and whilst you may not like the product DOW has done nothing wrong. I'm sure you won't see it this way, but you could take the view that Dow is being generous in offering to take the contaminated manure away; the responsibility for your problem lies solely with the slapdash husbandry of the farmer or contractor who used the chemical in the first place and flagrantly ignored the hazard label on the product.

I'm not pro-Dow or pro Big-Pharma. I think the farming community was remarkably slapdash with their use of chemicals in this instance, and the result was widespread distribution of contaminated manure. That caused the product to be temporarily withdrawn. I am not optimistic about the so-called tighter notification that was introduced when the product was re-licensed, and always seek reassurance from the farmers I get my manure from as to the provenance of the hay used to feed the animals.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 06, 2011, 13:29
You have my sympathy, but I disagree with your statement "but in my opinion they should go a lot further to compensate the many allotment holders who have been devastated by this chemical disaster."

The farmer should never have sold the hay to the stables, and the stables should have become aware from the press (at some time in the last three years) that there was a potential problem that they should be careful about. It was reported in Farmers Weekly in November 2007 (and probably at other times since then too)

As you have found out that the grass was treated with Forefront then someone you have spoken to must know that that product specifically was used, and they must therefore have seen the label when the chemical was used. That label, at that time, was absolutely clear about the side effects and the responsibility of farmers to inform recipients of hay, silage, manure, slurry etc.

I posted the instructions, verbatim, from the label in another forum in 2008.  Here's a copy:

"Manure and Slurry Management

Do not use animal waste (e.g. manure or slurry) from animals fed on grass treated with Forefront, of fodder resulting from grass treated with Forefront, on susceptible crops e.g. peas, beans and other legumes, sugar beet, carrots and umbelliferae, potatoes and tomatoes, lettuce and other compositae, or land intended for growing such crops.

If grass, hay, silage, manure or slurry is exported off your farm, it is your responsibility to inform the recipient of this information
"

(the boldfacing is mine)

The farm has had three years (during which time knowledge of the issue in the farming industry has become increasingly commonplace) to make the stables aware of the potential problem ...

As others have said, Dow has obtained a licence for this product under current regulations, and whilst you may not like the product DOW has done nothing wrong. I'm sure you won't see it this way, but you could take the view that Dow is being generous in offering to take the contaminated manure away; the responsibility for your problem lies solely with the slapdash husbandry of the farmer or contractor who used the chemical in the first place and flagrantly ignored the hazard label on the product.

I'm not pro-Dow or pro Big-Pharma. I think the farming community was remarkably slapdash with their use of chemicals in this instance, and the result was widespread distribution of contaminated manure. That caused the product to be temporarily withdrawn. I am not optimistic about the so-called tighter notification that was introduced when the product was re-licensed, and always seek reassurance from the farmers I get my manure from as to the provenance of the hay used to feed the animals.

Thanks for your very informative reply, especially the labelling details. Was the labelling you quote in place before it was withdrawn or after it was relicensed? Maybe you don't know.

I know that Forefront was applied directly to the horses' pasture in my case, so no farmers or hay were involved. The owner of the stables has found out that Forefront was used - as a result of me warning her that her manure had problems - and she has kindly told me. I don't know who applied it - the owner or a contractor. And my best information is that it was applied some time ago, so maybe before the problem became more widely known.

I'm still left with unresolved serious concerns -

1. In my case the herbicide stayed in the manure for a long time (years), until it came into contact with my plants, so presumably there is still contaminated manure dotted around the countryside and there are going to be more innocent victims. This thread is the only way I know of keeping the matter alive - there are definitely allotment holders on my allotment site who still know nothing about the issue.

2. As an innocent victim, who will compensate me (and the many others)? This is not my main concern - I'm not one of society's 'grabbers', but businesses tend to change their ways most readily when profits are threatened.

3. Like you, I'm not at all confident that the tighter regulations are effective. Policing the use of these herbicides is impossible. Sadly, as long as they are on the market there will be cases like mine. I hope it's never you, who are reading this.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Ice on May 06, 2011, 14:02
Would be useful to others if you posted some pictures of the damage.  As we often say on here "a picture paints a thousand words".
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 06, 2011, 14:27
Would be useful to others if you posted some pictures of the damage.  As we often say on here "a picture paints a thousand words".

Yes - I keep forgetting to take my good camera to the allotment, but I've got a few poor potato shots taken with my wife's camera phone (one of which is already my avatar pic) - and my dead rose bushes - and I could photograph the dying rhubarb, but we've moved it and chopped it down a bit, so it might be a bit misleading. And I can photograph the bare ground where the beans didn't grow!

I'll try to remember to take the camera to the allotment next time I go. In the meantime, here are two of the cameraphone shots (with apologies for poor quality)...

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/chubbylover88/Image076.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/chubbylover88/Image071.jpg)

Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Kristen on May 06, 2011, 17:14

Thanks for your very informative reply, especially the labelling details. Was the labelling you quote in place before it was withdrawn or after it was relicensed? Maybe you don't know.

Definitely before it was re-licensed (that wording was from 2008), but I am not sure whether that wording was "in place" when it was first released - the Farmer/Contractor may have had some chemical sat on the shelf with an earlier wording I suppose.

Quote
And my best information is that it was applied some time ago, so maybe before the problem became more widely known.

Yes, that's quite possible of course. If that's the case its a pity no one involved thought to "speak up" to their "clients" when the problem became more widely known

Quote
the herbicide stayed in the manure for a long time (years), until it came into contact with my plants

I've forgotten the details, but there was discussion at the time. The herbicide will persist in plant matter. So putting contaminated manure on your soil, and then composting the plants that grow (abnormally) will persist the problem I think. From memory Dow's advice at the time was to rotavate contaminated ground a number of times during the season to help the chemical break down, and to prevent vegetation growing that can persist the cycle. Hopefully a Google will find the advice that was given / discussed at the time. I will PM you some links to another forum where it was discussed

Quote
As an innocent victim, who will compensate me (and the many others)? This is not my main concern - I'm not one of society's 'grabbers', but businesses tend to change their ways most readily when profits are threatened.

Indeed, and I said as much in a number of threads at the time. The farmer, or contractor who sprayed, is liable (assuming that this did not pre-date when the instructions made it clear). There are also requirements for Waste Disposal, but manure is a grey area. Movement of manure from one farm to another is permitted, and whether "An Allotment" constitutes Agriculture or not is a grey area in this regard. Likewise for disposable of Manure from Stables to "Agriculture" [which might encompass "Allotments"]. There was a formal report from the Environment Agency, or somesuch, that said as much at the time (including the "grey area" bits that I have mentioned)

Whether you have a case against someone for negligence during Waste Disposal (which I think is a matter for the Environment Agency) I'm therefore not sure. They may, hopefully?, have tightened up the "grey areas" since 2008.

You have been sold goods that are "unfit", so Trading Standards should also help.

Quote
Policing the use of these herbicides is impossible

Quite. :(
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: mobilekat on May 06, 2011, 20:47
As an former horse owner I would like to make a comment in defence of the yard owner who provided the manure.

The last few years it has been hard to get good hay, and horses eat it like its going out of fashion (and then produce the manure we all love)
The real pain is that most places you get hay from- farmer merchant etc. are very poor at telling you where the hay came from (as they don't want you to go direct to the farmer)
This means it is very easy to end up feeding hay that has come from 'bad pasture'. And when you have an hungry horse you have to feed it!

We all end up caught in a bad circle. I would never want to feed my animals with hay that contains excess chemicals, as no matter the testing that has been done it cant be ideal.

Nor would any one I know with horses want to have manure that was not safe to use.

I have had friends affected by this issue and really do wish more thought had gone into the licencing of the chemical, as anyone who produces a product designed for use on hay and silage will know where this will eventually end up.

But when push comes to shove the main thing that agri-chemical companies consider is the bottom line, after all they are businesses.
And in the end its the environment which loses out!



Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Nobbie on May 12, 2011, 07:44
Just been up to check my allotment and found all my spuds are just like the pictures above :(, looks like we've had a load of contaminated manure at our site.

I'd lined the rows with manure, so will dig it up and remove it, anyone know what crops are most resistant to this menace? I'm thinking sweetcorn, as it's a grass, what about cabbages? anything else?
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: realfood on May 12, 2011, 20:49
From my experience, if the manure stays in a heap, even as small as a bucketful, and is exposed to the elements, it will stay lethal as the aminopyralid is still locked up in the grass residues until it has completely rotted down with the action of soil bacteria.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Nobbie on May 14, 2011, 14:11

The advice is appreciated Geoff :), Actually, I moved from Ickleford and have only just updated my profile ::) to Wilmslow Cheshire.

I went up the allotment yesterday and put a notice on the suspect heap and by chance there is an allotment meeting on Monday night where I'll let everyone know. Sadly when I had a look around the site it looks like many others have been affected. I talked to my neighbour and he was completely unaware of the problem untill I showed him where his spuds were affected.

I've removed the manure that was spread over the brassica bed and will just go ahead and plant and see what happens. Luckily it was compacted ground and so was relatively easy to scrape of. I tried to remove the manure from the potato trenches, but it's very difficult now that the potatos have there roots through it. The advice I've read elsewhere is that the best way to clear the plot is to rotavate the area every few weeks to allow soil bacteria to work. I haven't got a rotavator, so it looks like a lot of digging. Still nothing like the job you've got on your hands though :( I feel positively lucky in comparison, as 2/3 of my plot is unaffected.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Zippy on May 15, 2011, 01:20
I feel that this herbicide has become so widespread now that it is pretty much lost in the system and so any manure should be considered suspect unless its history is really well known.

I won't use manure at all for this reason and other reasons that are not relevant here. The risk (for me) has become too great as the veggies I grow are more than a hobby; they supplement our food provisions so I couldn't afford a spoiled plot.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on May 18, 2011, 17:39
Zippy's 'veganic' route does sound interesting. I too would like to know more - I suppose it's just a click away, so I must get clicking.

...and thanks for the information Nobbie. Everything you say is right. Sorry for not having replied sooner, but I haven't been around for a few days.  ::)
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: glallotments on June 30, 2011, 12:26
I've just been alerted to the contents of this thread and like others are really sorry that you have been affected. It will be no consolation but you are not on your own at having been affected this year. See this list on my website: http://glallotments.co.uk/Manure2011.aspx
It seems it is usually around this time of year that the problem surfaces.

One thing to bear in mind is that testing isn't foolproof as the chemical is only released once soil microbes break down the manure and also some piles of manure may contain only parts affected if for instance the animals have been fed different fodder.

You shouldn't be complacent if you find a good source of manure as all it needs is for the supplier to change his fodder supplire or the supplier to change the source of feed materials. Even though animal feed should be longer be affected it seems that this is still happening.

The new stewardship should have meant that no fresh manure should be affected but reports seem to suggest that new manure is being contaminated in some way. As for well rotted stacked manure this can hold on to the contamination for several years. It's only contact with the soil that will break down the herbicide contained within.

If you are unsure of what the problem looks like I have loads of photos on my website. Some are taken of my own plants and many others have been sent to me by other victims.

As for courgettes being affected - some plants are more susceptible than others. Some such as potatoes, tomatoes and beans are sensitive at extremely low levels of contamination but at higher levels other plants will be affected. As far as I am aware the only plant family that tolerates the chemical completely is the grass family including cereal crops and sweet corn.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on June 30, 2011, 18:31
This topic has been dormant for a while but, just like aminopyralid, it's been lurking in the background, waiting to rear its ugly head again.

I've just visited your website glallotments and your list of tales of woe has brought it all to the surface again. I agree with your comment about the curious paradox of Dow Agrosciences volunteering to remove contaminated manure but washing their hands of any responsibility. Doesn't quite add up, does it? I wonder, have they decided that this is the cheapest way to contain the problem (ie helping infected individuals), whilst keeping what may well be a highly profitable stable of products on the market?

Many of my crops are still showing signs of poisoning. I'm 'looking forward' to digging up a potato plant to inspect the crop in a few weeks time. As for the tomatoes, will their fruit look as weird as their leaves? Time will tell.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Vit on July 01, 2011, 08:39
All this story have "bad smell", because big chemical business involved :blush:. This "accident" remind me a story about DDT. Feels very sorry for people, who been affected. What i can say - first put some <censored LOL> into the food chain, then say "No, you shouldn't use animal waste for fertilizing, because bla-bla-bla. Use these magic powder/granules/liquid". Simple. :blush:
1)Wiki does not provide any info, how long this chemical decomposing in the soil.
2)Any "antidot" for this substance avaliable?
3)Any other tests apart form "bean test"?
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: BabbyAnn on July 01, 2011, 09:27

1)Wiki does not provide any info, how long this chemical decomposing in the soil.
2)Any "antidot" for this substance avaliable?
3)Any other tests apart form "bean test"?

1)  I think there is information available in previous posts and on site.  Generally it can be in the soil for up to 3 years but the decomposition can be speeded up if the soil is turned over regularly.  This incorporates air and redistributes it (a dilution effect if you want another word) and allows soil bacteria to help break it down.
2)  No antidote - avoid growing broad leafed plants (which restricts you to things like alliums and sweetcorn) in in the affected area
3)  The "bean test" is ideal for amateur gardeners who don't have access to expensive analysis tests - a bean plant can grow quickly in a pot containing the contaminated soil in the warmth of a sunny windowsill, and any deformities in its development should be detected reasonably quickly.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: ge0ff on July 01, 2011, 11:58
And to BabyAnn - nice answers - you hit the nail on the head. Our onions are showing no sign of any problems. However, I reckon that it may well be possible for it to remain in the soil for longer than 3 years - possibly considerably longer.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: mumofstig on July 01, 2011, 12:50
Quote
However, I reckon that it may well be possible for it to remain in the soil for longer than 3 years - possibly considerably longer.

What makes you say that?.............I've not seen anything that suggests thats the case
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Pompey Spud on July 01, 2011, 14:49
Quote
However, I reckon that it may well be possible for it to remain in the soil for longer than 3 years - possibly considerably longer.

What makes you say that?.............I've not seen anything that suggests thats the case

Exactly MoS.

Geoff you have my sympathy with your plight. However, you're confusing fact with assumptions again and potentially leaving this site open for legal action.

My own personal view is it's a shame you didn't carry out all this effort into gaining knowledge about working a plot from the start.
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: lazydog on July 01, 2011, 16:48
I think this needs be kept at the top and thanks to Geoff for bringing it up again,as someone else said this stinks big corporation but why for hells sake did the goverbent not ban it this will be a problem until the  license runs out,IRC 7 years time before it is due for renewel!
Also the same pile of manure can vary from top to bottom of the pile so one plot holder may be ok but the next will not be.
If someone like me needs tons of soil conditioner/fertilizer what are we supposed to do this is the food chain and nobody in the right place seems to really care except about money! :mad:   
Title: Re: Aminopyralid - Persistent Herbicide In Manure Causes Problems with Crops
Post by: Aunt Sally on July 01, 2011, 19:00
This is a very valuable discussion so has been turned into an information topic in our Information section.

If anyone has any new information to add to the topic please contact Admin. (John or me) or a moderator.

John's info here
http://www.allotment-garden.org/grow-your-own/garden-diary/2010-03/contaminated-manure-fertilisers

If you're getting some manure for your plot or strange growing problems, do read up on it.




edit to fix link after system upgrade