Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Smallhold Farming and Rural Living => Property, Buildings, Equipment and Alternative Energy => Topic started by: John on October 28, 2010, 23:41
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Our woodburner arrived today - we chose a Saltfire Wimbourne. So courier called yesterday and asked about access so we explained it was tricky but they could get something like a transit or Luton with a tail lift but nothing bigger up the track.
So will it be morning or afternoon? I asked. Call me in the morning he said. Now, never expect much of a firm that answer the phone "Hang on, mate". Finally says he'll call back to let me know am or pm. Well come 1pm I reckon it won't be the morning..
Finally 1 man arrives in a small van in the back of which is a 95Kg stove strapped to a palette. We unwrapped, take out the grate and bits (every little helps) and finally get it onto the ground, luckily without serious back injury. I've got a sack truck so get it under cover.
Later the HETAS approved engineer arrives to look at the installation job. Now remember this is going where a stove has gone before. Checks the flue, which has been lined properly (yippee!) but he has to put a permanent air vent in to outside.
Now I can understand caution with gas but we're talking coal / wood fuel here. The idea is to be energy efficient, carbon neutral, greener than the sweetcorn tin man. So why bother insulating, double glazing and draught proofing only to whack a hole in the wall to let the cold air in?
For that matter, which idiot politician decided you had to tell the local authority and get building regs approval to fit a blinking stove? :(
I suppose it all makes work for the working man to do as the song goes but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth being a law abiding citizen.
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the problem is that if it doesnt get enough air then it wont burn cleanly this means (for you) more often cleaning the flue wasted fuel and not as much heat and (for the enviroment) more polution co2 and sulpher from coal im not too sure abouut wood
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I can understand that, mike, however houses in the UK are pretty leaky. I suppose pressure testing each one individually would be crackers (hope some government person doesn't read that!). Strikes me the problem with regulations is that don't allow for common sense.
Just to be clear - I'm obeying, albeit under protest, the regulations
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We had to have a new air vent put in for our open fire when the cavity wall insulation was injected. It`s the law got to be done the man said. Not allowed to fit a closable vent for very cold or windy weather it has to be open all the time by law.
Some days you might just as well light the fire then go and sit outside. :D
Or you make a bad weather cover for the vent . :)
As John said older houses have plenty of air gaps for ventilation and most have windows you can open and close.
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When we had our woodburner re-fitted last year to come up to standard, they fitted a cover on the outside to help stop any draughts coming in, but they said we had to have it also in case there were any fumes coming from the fire.
Brian made them put the air vent in the corner behind where the TV sites so its out of sight as they wanted to put it up near the ceiling!
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We had to have one when our cavity wall insulation went in. He said, ' I've got to put this in an outside wall. Where do you want me to hide it?' So it is behind the sofa in the far corner. More draught comes under the door than through the vent. :dry:
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sure you could improvise something for wet windy days a tuppaware box and some gaffer tape would do the trick
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Why not, after it's installed, remove a cover and seal it from the inside? ::)
Looks like a vent, but isn't a blow hole for draughts. If someone comes to check, it'll look ok from the outside and inside but you'll know better, hehe :lol:
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Why not, after it's installed, remove a cover and seal it from the inside? ::)
Looks like a vent, but isn't a blow hole for draughts. If someone comes to check, it'll look ok from the outside and inside but you'll know better, hehe :lol:
Really, what a sneaky suggestion! As if we'd do such a thing! ;) ;) ;)
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Mine was a smaller size so not vent needed for mine, thank goodness. It's a belter mine is and I love it so (Esse 100SE)
It heats the whole room up really quickly :)
I was splitting huge logs yesterday with a grenade and a big axe and I'm only weak and feeble. Felt right proud but fear I've made a rod for my own back :D
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:blush: :D
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Mine was a smaller size so not vent needed for mine, thank goodness. It's a belter mine is and I love it so (Esse 100SE)
It heats the whole room up really quickly :)
I was splitting huge logs yesterday with a grenade and a bix axe and I'm only weak and feeble. Felt right proud but fear I've made a rod for my own back :D
Keep on log splitting and the weak and feeble will disappear. :)
Much more productive than standing in front of the tv waving your Wii about. :D
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I suppose it all makes work for the working man to do as the song goes but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth being a law abiding citizen.
Sadly I think not :(
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You have to be carefull with the heating engineers sometimes .They seem to want to make the job bigger sometimes.I live in 17th century cottage and as its a listed building we've got to have old fashioned draughty windows and doors.
When the heating engineer arived to fit our woodburner he informed me that hed have to put a vent through the wall(3 foot thick stone wall :mad:) and that he'd be back with reinforcment's the next week to start the job.In the meantime i checked with the local authority and my undoubleglazed windows count as a vent so a huge bill was averted.Funny how the engineer didn't know this isn't it :nowink:
I would seriously check out you'r options as a small job can multiply quickly.If you'r windows are quite new they might have vents on them,i'd check that first.I've fitted three stoves in hear myself and it's quite easy.
The most important think is that the pipe at the top of the stove goes into a flue/lined chimney that is the same size or larger.If it goes into a smaller hole it can affect the air draw so making it burn inefficiently and may cause a hazard with carbon monoxcide .Allways select a stove that will allow you to maintaine the air flow so ckecking the diamater of the flue before buying a stove is really important.
I have found out that fire cement is much better for sealing the joints than fire silicone as this tends to shrivel up with the heat over time.
Sorry for going on BUT do check your windows and if possible get someone from the local authority to have a look if it's free
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His plan seems to be to put a vent through the normal walled porch and then a vent through the door from the porch to the dining room with the stove. The double glazing doesn't have trickle vents. Ideal would be to run an air intake down the side of the flue, thereby heating the incoming air but he looked at me as if I should be in a special jacket tied at the back when I suggested that!
Having checked with my pal in Norway, his triple glazed, super insulated house that's primarily heated with a wood burner hasn't any air vent. He laughed at the suggestion. Amazingly he's still alive :)
As for the flue - it's about 6.5" diameter and the outlet from the stove is 5" so hopefully OK.
One confusing thing - he's coming out of the back of the stove, bending 90 degrees and up into the flue. He said a bend was illegal but he would use a T piece. Blessed if I can see what the difference would be. The smoke still goes around 90 degrees.
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These people are a complete mystery. Common sense and logic doesn't seem to be on their radar. ???
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I forget the percentage, but with every bend in your pipes, it slows the exhaust flow by a considerable amount, which also drops more creosote (when burning wood) onto the pipe linings. A 45 degree bend is far better than a 90, but ideal is a straight run upward. As if that's going to happen ;) More bends also constricts general air flow when using the LPG.
We don't do any extra cold air drops over here, but we had to with our oil burning furnace. If you're doing dual fuels, then you're stuck with the cold air supply. I believe this regulation was based on the assumption that all homes are now airtight (I can hear the peals of laughter).
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"One confusing thing - he's coming out of the back of the stove, bending 90 degrees and up into the flue. He said a bend was illegal but he would use a T piece. Blessed if I can see what the difference would be. The smoke still goes around 90 degrees
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A "T" is used as the bottom void can catch stuff that falls back down ,the cap covering it can be used as access to inspect/sweep the flue.
With a 90 bend anything falling gets trapped against the stove baffle and restricts the flue gas which can lead to carbon monoxide being produced.
The production of carbon monoxide is another reason why adequate ventilation is needed
smud6ie
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I used stovesonline for a lot of the technical stuff. It's all laid out in easy to understand language :D they will answer all your techy questions as well. Loads about flue sizes and ventilation etc. Go and have a look :)
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A "T" is used as the bottom void can catch stuff that falls back down ,the cap covering it can be used as access to inspect/sweep the flue.
With a 90 bend anything falling gets trapped against the stove baffle and restricts the flue gas which can lead to carbon monoxide being produced.
The production of carbon monoxide is another reason why adequate ventilation is needed
smud6ie
Ahh, that T versus Bend thing makes sense now - thank you :)
I'm not really convinced that an air vent is really required, but I accept the regulations are the regulations, no matter how daft I think they are. And, in fairness, I'm not an engineer so my opinion isn't enough to know when I can over ride the rules safely.
I do know that if we had a fire and I'd got an illegal installation we could have problems with the insurance company. And, importantly, carbon monoxide kills.
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In a windy place fumes (from woodburner or boiler) can get blown back into the house so it is a good idea to have a carbon monoxide alarm.
In the snow the wind blew snow into our vent and effectively sealed us in with the fumes and the fumes got muckier as there wasn't enough oxygen to burn clean. :ohmy: The boiler did stop firing before the fumes built up too much fortunately!
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At the moment we've an open chimney tunnel with the wind howling down it. It's got a cowl on the top and not hugely drafty but it's very noisy.
Anyway, we've another quote coming next week and then, hopefully, we can get it set up. I did have someone offer to do the install but he's not HETAS so we'd need to get the council to give building regs approval.. they want £350 for that so whatever way you turn the till rings loudly :(
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If only the woodburner itself was the main cost :mad:
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Vents are put into old drafty houses when a new heating system is installed in case someone later installs double glazing (removing the natural airflow), not many double glazing installers bother to think about putting a vent in.
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Vents are put into old drafty houses when a new heating system is installed in case someone later installs double glazing (removing the natural airflow), not many double glazing installers bother to think about putting a vent in.
I thought double glazing came with trickle vents as standard nowadays? Anyway, the regs for the stove are permanent vent which I take to mean a vent that you can't close.
If we had a wooden suspended floor then I could have run a vent up into the hearth but we've concrete.. and walls 3 feet thick.
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As you may of read in one of my previous threads, we were looking at instlling the woodburner, but with the hellish nightmare of having it installed and insurance companies insistance on certification for installation etc we gave it up.
Nice idea but the reallity was a real spherical ache.
I don't envy you John, I am sure when its in you will be very pleased with it. By the way, I was told it would be probably best to have it swept twice a year, not sure if this is right, but the expense of twice a year sweeps makes it quite expensive to run.
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I think the moral of this story is ...... don't tell 'them' everything ...... just do it!
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I think the moral of this story is ...... don't tell 'them' everything ...... just do it!
Problem is, as happened in our little town, when a house went up, or more like went crispy the insurance failed to pay up, it hadn't been installed by HETAS and no certificate so no coverage on policy.
I know when we chatted to the insurance they said our policy covers it but three conditions apply..
1. Had to be installed by a HETAS person and certification produced (apperently hetas person does certificate, one copy to council via hetas HQ and one for us)
2. Our chimmney had to be lined to current regs, again hetas installed.
3. No cooking (includes toasting marshmellows and crumpets)
Who ever we spoke to all said to contact the insurance peeps. I also believe the regs changed 1/10/10.
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I wonder what happens if you have an ordinary fieplace and chimney, and the house catches fire :unsure: You don't have HETAS certification for pre existing fireplaces.
I really can't see that wood burners are any more dangerous than a roaring coal fire, I think it's just a way of making money from the new fashion for stoves :(
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It was a dream of ours to have a woodburner in our non chimney semi but having spoken to a HETAS qualified engineer sadly that's all it will remain, easier/cheaper for us to move! I believe the regs now state that a carbon monoxide alarm must be fitted, sensible in my opinion. Good luck John, trust you are settling in.
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I wonder what happens if you have an ordinary fieplace and chimney, and the house catches fire :unsure: You don't have HETAS certification for pre existing fireplaces.
I really can't see that wood burners are any more dangerous than a roaring coal fire, I think it's just a way of making money from the new fashion for stoves :(
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A wood burner can be more dangerous than an open fire by the very fact that they can be shut right down and not roaring away all the time.It is during the closed down period a WB,especially if the wood is damp or unseasoned that tar/creasote is produced in the chimney.
Insurance companies set their conditions by statistics!
smud6ie
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Sort of change of subject - yes there's a risk with a woodburner but I wonder if we're not becoming a very risk-averse, health and safety culture. Perhaps a couple of people die due to CO poisoning, so we bring out regulations which means loadsa money to comply to protect against a very rare event.
Since around 8 people a day die in road traffic accidents we should limit the speed of cars to 10mph, insist all cars are surrounded with 2 feet or soft foam padding and everyone should wear crash helmets at all times.
Then again, I thought the campaign to wear seat belts was a bit OTT until I crashed :(
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Sort of change of subject - yes there's a risk with a woodburner but I wonder if we're not becoming a very risk-averse, health and safety culture. Perhaps a couple of people die due to CO poisoning, so we bring out regulations which means loadsa money to comply to protect against a very rare event.
I do agree John and I also think insurance rules the world.
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If you want a log burner though you have to put the vent in the same as you have to follow the regs for the chimney etc. Still, if you have gales blowing through the windows it's a bit daft :D
I had to abide by the smoke exemption rules and get an SE model (Esse 100SE I got) but once I'd done the installation according to the regs at least I'm happy that it's safe. The SE model was no more expensive. We put in a beefier liner though which cost a bit more
If you're getting free logs for the next couple of years that mitigates the cost of the installation somewhat :)
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I await the log certification scheme to be brought out whereby all logs will be judged fit for burning by a competent person in the meaning of the act who shall issue a certificate in five parts one part to be sent to the local council, one to the producer of the wood, one to the owner, one to the burner and a file copy.
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And bio-hazard suit with oxygen supply for emptying the ash ! :)
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And bio-hazard suit with oxygen supply for emptying the ash ! :)
Said ash to be glassified and buried for 300,000 years - not used to grow tomatoes :)
Joking aside - from the fire service web site: "Wood-burning stoves and boilers should only use the right quality of wood"
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Do you mean we shouldn't have been burning old window frames for the past 5 years?? Ooooops! ;) ;) ;)
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tut tut norty Grannie :lol:
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You pay a ton of money for a log burner now though and they aren't meant to be incinerators
I think though that some folks buy them to look at and never actually light them. Just stack wood neatly underneath for show :D
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When your main heating is LPG, a woodburner makes a lot of sense and even more so when you have wood about. Eventually I'd like to have enough trees growing to be self-sufficient in wood. May take a few years though :)
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I couldn't agree more, John.
We have LPG central heating running off of bottles.
£50 a bottle, running two at a time, lasts about a fortnight if the heating is on 24Hrs.
LPG is reasonably economical for cooking and heating water in a combi boiler, but will bankrupt you for heating a home. :(
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I want to look at ground source heat pump heating with solar water pre-heating but right now the piggy bank is getting empty :(
It's beginning to feel like the middle bit of Grand Designs, where they run out of money. Except on a much smaller scale. Can hardly see our cow shed renovation making the TV :D
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I want to look at ground source heat pump heating with solar water pre-heating but right now the piggy bank is getting empty :(
It's beginning to feel like the middle bit of Grand Designs, where they run out of money. Except on a much smaller scale. Can hardly see our cow shed renovation making the TV :D
Ahhh but they may be interested in the eco heating part of it.........I'd seriously put a few feelers out....You never know, and it may help a little towards the cost?
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You can understand why years ago people and animals lived together. I bet ruminating cattle give off some heat :D
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and smells :lol:
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It's bad enough sleeping with two cats on the bed, never mind a cow!
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Those cats are free hot water bottles. I used to have a very good foot heating Jack Russell. Boy do I miss that dog :D
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Did a bit of work on an alpine farmhouse (extra rooms for skiers) and i can see how the humans benefited from the bovine central heating with all the accomodation in open galleries off the main 'barn'. If it is a choice between below zero temp or smelly you get used to the smell. :)