Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: RJR_38 on April 27, 2014, 11:30
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I am trying 2 new varieties of tomato this year - Marmande and San Marzano 3. They will both be growing outside as I don't have a greenhouse. What do I do (or not) about pinching of side shoots? The packet says San Marzano is semi-determinate and it doesn't mention it on the packet of Marmande but some googling tells me it is indeterminate.
In theory I should be removing side-shoots, yes? However, a few sites I have looked at suggest that you should not do this at all for outdoor tomatoes so now I am very confused. At the moment the plants are only about 12 inches high so I have plenty of time but I want to do it right
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I grow San Marzano in the greenhouse as indeterminate/cordon tomatoes........outside I just let them get on with it ;)
I've grown Marmande and they were left to get bushy as well :D
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My researches suggest they are the other way round! :unsure:
I'm trying Marmande for the first time this year and am expecting them to be 'semi-bush,' which I'm guessing will mean not pinching out side shoots until and unless you feel the whole plant is outgrowing itself for the time available to set and ripen all the fruit, and/or it's becoming very difficult to support.
Link: http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Marmande
Not grown San Marzano 3 but it appears to be indeterminate (cordon) so will need pinching out.
Link: http://www.sanmarzanotomatoes.org/varieties.html
(Just seen Mum's post - seems they are both pretty forgiving however you grow them! :lol:)
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The packet for the San Marzano's definitely says semi-determinate. (I got it from the seed parcel) but I am liking the fact I can leave them to get on with it - my favourite type of gardening as I don't have the time (or inclination) to faff unless I have to!
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It depends on how you grow them outside.
Are you going to create support for them? If you build a trellis and grow them weaving them around a wire, you would need to take out the suckers and have one main stem. Because the growing season is limited outside you can basically stop the plant after a certain amount of trusses (5-7).
If you don't use a tall support you can grow any tomato in the "bush" style and just prune it back a little bit so that it is not just leaves that you are growing.
You can also just keep one stem and let the tomato meander.
You can also put them in a row and basket weave.
Indeterminates will do better with some pruning though, however you grow them. The idea one keeping a main stem is to focus the tomato plant on tomato production.
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It depends on how you grow them outside.......
If you don't use a tall support you can grow any tomato in the "bush" style and just prune it back a little bit so that it is not just leaves that you are growing.
Trouble is if you prune a 'real' bush/determinate type, you will be pruning off the the terminal buds where the flowers/fruit form.
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Hmm you've confused me even more!
I've got my packet of Kings seeds San Marzano and its says for outdoor sowing:
"When the first trust of flowers appear, transplant to growing site. Stake for support, remove side shoots as they appear."
Shame as I had thought it was a bush tom and I could leav it be.
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I was given 2 San Marzano last year and all I did was stake it. The side shoots get weighted down with fruit and are at risk of snapping if you do not support them as well. I just stuck stakes in where they were needed. Nice tomato .
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Hmm you've confused me even more!
I've got my packet of Kings seeds San Marzano and its says for outdoor sowing:
"When the first trust of flowers appear, transplant to growing site. Stake for support, remove side shoots as they appear."
Shame as I had thought it was a bush tom and I could leav it be.
There are lots of different types of San Marzano though with slightly different properties apparently :wacko: mine is San Marzano 3... They are from real Italian seeds
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It depends on how you grow them outside.......
If you don't use a tall support you can grow any tomato in the "bush" style and just prune it back a little bit so that it is not just leaves that you are growing.
Trouble is if you prune a 'real' bush/determinate type, you will be pruning off the the terminal buds where the flowers/fruit form.
Hence I said prune it a little bit. You I didn't say pinch all the suckers off. You will want to do some pruning with something like san marzano. It is a late variety. I doubt you can get all trusses to ripen anyway if it was a bush type in the UK. The plant might not have the energy for that. I couldn't get more than 3 trusses to ripen with the regular san marzano last year outside. But then again, I don't have an afterseason at all.
But the point I was trying to make was that you can grow an indeterminate one as a bush. But you will have to prune it a bit. Those things grow like crazy and will just put all their effort into leaves and an excessive amount of flowers. You can't ripen them all, so you need to keep on top of it anway if you want to somewhat maximize production.
I searched a bit for whether san marzano 3 is a determinate or indeterminate.
It seems to vary a bit. No one says semi-determinate. Others say indeterminate. Tatiana's tomato database says indeterminate. Let's just go with that.
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[quote/]
I searched a bit for whether san marzano 3 is a determinate or indeterminate.
It seems to vary a bit. No one says semi-determinate. Others say indeterminate. Tatiana's tomato database says indeterminate. Let's just go with that.
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Weird! Wonder why my packet says that then. Very odd
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I thought the difference between determinate and indeterminate tomatoes was that the determinate grows lots of shoots to about the same length and bears fruit at about the same time. An indeterminate keeps growing putting out shoots along the length of the vine and with fruit setting in succession as the plant grows. If you've got space, there's no need to prune indeterminate plants but they will grow all over the place and lots of the fruit will not ripen because it will set too late.
The point of training them in greenhouses is that they take up less floorspace and (inside or outside) you prune them to discourage lots of growth (which will shade the fruit) and late flowers that won't produce ripe fruit.
In other words if you've space, you don't have to cordon train indeterminate plants but you will have to support them and, whilst you will get more fruit, the later setting fruit won't ripen.
Determinate plants will naturally form a bush and most of the fruit will set at about the same time.
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sorry. I typed it wrong. ONE said it was semi-determinate.
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I thought the difference between determinate and indeterminate tomatoes was that the determinate grows lots of shoots to about the same length and bears fruit at about the same time. An indeterminate keeps growing putting out shoots along the length of the vine and with fruit setting in succession as the plant grows. If you've got space, there's no need to prune indeterminate plants but they will grow all over the place and lots of the fruit will not ripen because it will set too late.
The point of training them in greenhouses is that they take up less floorspace and (inside or outside) you prune them to discourage lots of growth (which will shade the fruit) and late flowers that won't produce ripe fruit.
In other words if you've space, you don't have to cordon train indeterminate plants but you will have to support them and, whilst you will get more fruit, the later setting fruit won't ripen.
Determinate plants will naturally form a bush and most of the fruit will set at about the same time.
That summary makes sense, thanks. I guess I can just make sure they don't get too big so I don't end up with lots of unripe fruit - but then again green tomato chutney is delicious :)
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I missed one other point, the growth and flowers on indeterminate will prevent the earlier fruit from ripening because the plant is putting effort into growing.
My problem with growing outdoor tomatoes is blight. :(
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Last year I experimented. I had sweet millions cherry toms and Alicante toms. I grew them corden in the pt and left them alone outside in a bed. They both produced lots of lovely toms. The greenhouse ones were red earlier easy to pick and were perfect. The left alone ones, bent under the weight of the fruits and needed some support, so I put canes on some of the stems. They took longer to ripen and towards the end they all got blight. So if they need treating as a cordon, there is usually a reason.
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I'm growing Marmande this year too, and expect to cordon them like the others.
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Last year I experimented. I had sweet millions cherry toms and Alicante toms. I grew them corden in the pt and left them alone outside in a bed. They both produced lots of lovely toms. The greenhouse ones were red earlier easy to pick and were perfect. The left alone ones, bent under the weight of the fruits and needed some support, so I put canes on some of the stems. They took longer to ripen and towards the end they all got blight. So if they need treating as a cordon, there is usually a reason.
This lines up with my comment and experience, the only thing I haven't tried is letting an indeterminate variety run rampant in the polytunnel (there isn't space) but I might have a go this year. I would suggest that the fact that your plants got blight last year is nothing to do with whether they were grown as a cordon or not, my outdoor plants almost always get blight (all varieties, however treated) because its in the atmosphere and brought down by the rain, that's why I've basically given up growing tomatoes outdoors except for my excess plants. :(
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Last year was my first and we obviously had a very good summer so the fact I got an excess of outdoor cherry size tomatoes may not happen every year so a bit if an experiment this year!