Green Manure v Horse Muck

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Jay The Digger

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Green Manure v Horse Muck
« on: September 13, 2009, 08:38 »
I have never used green manure before, but as half my plot is now empty I am thinking of planting green manure to beef up the soil whilst not in use.

Is green manure as good as animal muck?  I am of the opinion that the green manure has to take form the soil to grow (albeit that itwill dug back in again) but would add consierably to the organic content, whilst horse/cow/pig muck would be effectively adding nutrients to the soil.  Am I right in this thinking?

Also should green manure be used in the same way as normal fertiliser with regards to crop rotation?  ie do not use it where my root crops will be next year?

I was thinking of planting mustard where my potatoes where, and Field beans over the rest.

Any advice would be greatly welcomed...



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Ourveggiepatch

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 08:56 »
Hi

I am new to sowing green manure too this year, I have decided to sow it on all empty plots, I am of the opinion that as the roots are only shallow they wont take much from the soil in comparasion that it will add more than what it will take.

I feel that something is better than nothing and green manure is cheeper than horse muck - in my area at least.

Have you searched the net on the whole see if there is any advice out their for you?  I simply don't know the answer to your question and I am just going to suck it and see.

OVP

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Clover

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 10:12 »
I've read a lot about green manures lately and I don't think there is any definitive answer besides it depends very much on your soil type.  Any advice from someone who actually does this successfully would be appreciated.

I still dithering myself.  I have grazing rye, but seems I would have my work cut out digging it in in Spring when I will be at the peak of gardening activity so that's off the menu.

Trouble with the field beans is they say don't use them on dry soil which is my main problem this year.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to sow any nitrogen adding ones prior to root veg either.  The carrot museum says that highly nitrogenous soil causes forking, not just stirring in manure.  I'm not sure that's right, but I do seem to get a carrot forking problem when they are sown next to some of my clover paths so could be the case. (Does anyone know?)

My soil tends to be very dry and the manure I put on last year didn't seem to get incorporated at all quickly so I'm thinking I'll sow phacaelia (good for dry soil but adds no nitrogen) to keep the soil active with microbes and worms and mulch with well rotted manure and top that with straw so that the rain can get in and most weeds can't grow.  I suppose that's hedging my bets and I'm wondering if it's a good game plan?

Last year some of my manured beds were covered with plastic through the winter and they were dead gravel by Spring/early summer.  In fact the uncovered ones weren't much better so I'm thinking keeping roots growing will help.  The weedy ones were healthier.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 10:20 by Clover »

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Zippy

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 10:47 »
Some thoughts on this one:

A packet of alfalfa seeds will fit in your pocket and be enough to green manure a significant area, whereas with manure you will need a few buckets and forks, bags and a car and a good hot soak in a bath after collecting and spreading. Spreading manure is hard work compared to broadcast seeding a bed with seeds and a bit of raking.

Horse manure may be carrying the dreaded ammo herbicide. Green manure will not.

You say green manure takes nutrients from the soil so it is adding nothing to the soil on turning it back in. This is not quite true though as something like alfalfa will put roots down far below the gardening depth and bring up minerals which were inaccessible to your crops. Also photosynthesis plays an active role in growing the green manure so you are adding bulk to the soil which came from sunshine and water, not only the soil.

For those animal conscious folks, alfalfa does not exploit the meat market like some manures do although you did say horse manure which is possibly different. I would like to think horses have a better life, but I would want to be sure.

My own preference has been to garden veganically (no animal manures) except for the  hutch clearings from our pet rabbit and a few offerings from plot holders who scrape out their hen sheds and give the stuff away.

My twopenneth. :tongue2:

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Clover

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 10:57 »
Thanks Zippy

I like the idea of just using green manure, it's just I'm not sure about the practice  :)

I did look at Alfalfa, but the sowing guides saying between April-July so haven't we missed the boat?  Or do you sow successfully later?

Actually, I pretty much ruled out using any legume related types because I want to grow so many real peas and beans that it would muck up my rotation or would it if they're not very close relations?  That's another reason I think I should also add some kind of manure because I won't be getting much nitrogen.

See - I am having trouble finding one for all my requirements.  Dry earth, no to legumes, no to heavy-duty digging in, want nitrogen - How???



« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:13 by Clover »

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Zippy

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 11:14 »
Hi Clover.

The main problem I find with green manuring is that you are supposed to sow most of the really useful crops in spring/summer when you are wanting the soil for growing veg.

I was wondering about growing Buckwheat which is fast growing crop, but again it is a summer plant. I was wondering how late that summer can be? Hopefully the crop would put on enough bulk before the winter killed it off, leaving a mulch over winter to rot down for spring.

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Clover

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 11:36 »
Buckwheat looks nice, because it's not related to brassicas or legumes and it's good for 'poor soil', but that doesn't seem to add nitrogen either.  I suppose down here I might get away with an August sown one...

The sowing times have helped me whittle it down, but too far - at this time of year according to a booklet I've got from Gardenorganic, we're down to

Rye Hungarian grazing - sow until Nov (was my first choice until someone said it was a pig to dig in and seeing as I just uncovered my plot from mainly couch not looking forward to seeing it all grassed over again  :) )

Phacelia - sow until mid Sept (doesn't add nitrogen)

Tares, winter - sow July - Sept (no because of bean rotation)

Field Beans - sow Sept - Nov (no because of bean rotation)

Mustard - sow - mid Sept (no because of brassica rotation)

So I'm left with Rye and Phacelia but now I'm not sure the rye is a wise move and the Phacelia doesn't add nitrogen.  GAWD......

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Salmo

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 11:53 »
Green manures soak up the left over nutrients, especially nitrogen,  that would otherwise be leached out by the Winter rains and lost. These nutrients are released slowly for the following crop as the plants rot down after digging in.

You can grow green manure and apply manure as well.

Phacelia is easy to manage, smothers the weeds and can be sown up to mid September or maybe a little later. Ditto mustard.

Green manures such as field beans or grazing rye are usually sown later but do not really get going until early Spring. OK if you want to follow them with late sown/planted crops such as runner beans, courgettes, brassicas. Not OK if you want early seedbeds.

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Clover

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Re: Green Manure v Horse Muck
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 12:15 »
Thanks Salmo - That clarifies things a bit.  Practically speaking,  seems it probably will be Phacelia and manure for me this year as I do need to sow early most beds.

One other question - can you grow phacelia over again on the same spot or should it be rotated? I have seen people doing that so I wondered.



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