[gobs]

and containing products.

Rob's post sent me thinking and reading. I do not use them, so was not concerned. However, I was inclined to believe claims of its bio-degrading qualities.

Surprising then it comes, that it can remain in the soil for years. Even if it has low toxicity to humans, it is the second most offensive garden chemical in respect of reported accidents, ill health effects, on the other hand it is more harmful to fish and other water vertebrates and kills a lot of micro organisms and fungi in the soil.

Products, containing it, except for one are banned in Australia. The US has measures concerning treated areas. Info from pesticide network.

Might make some people think twice about using on an over grown plot.

[mushroom]

and containing products. Surprising then it comes, that it can remain in the soil for years.

Have you got a cite to this? I've read that once it is in contact with the soil, it is adsorbed onto the surface of soil particles, where it is broken down eventually by bacteria. Glyphosate can only function if the molecule is free. if it is bound electrostatically to soil, it is, to all intents and purposes, inert.

The articles I have read where there has been a problem with it, indicate the solvent (what the glyp is dissolved in) being the poisinous/dangerous factor...

[mushroom]

Here's some articles:

Article by the makers
an independent review
govt fact sheet and advisory

seems to have a half-life in the soil of 61 days. After a year it would be virtually undetectable.

[WG.]

Doesn't werk fer me !

Well glyphosate has only been available as a herbicide for maybe 35 years and that is a very short time indeed with regards to possible side-effects on an ecosystem.  It took longer than that to learn that DDT decreased raptor populations by making their egg shells too thin to support weight of the parent bird.

RoundUp made many many millions of dollars for Monsanto as a herbicide and genetically modified maize and soya beans (resistant to glyphosate) will make them $billions$ more.  Plenty of profit to fund advertising (and research) supporting the idea that it is "neutralised on contact with soil". Mmmmmm.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate which includes "Health concerns : There are concerns about the effects of glyphosate (and Roundup) on non-plant species even including on possible human reproductive dysfunction.  ... An in-vitro study has suggested glyphosate may have an effect on progesterone production in mammalian cells and affect mortality of placental cells in-vitro. Whether these studies classify glyphosate as an endocrine disruptor is a matter of debate."

seems to have a half-life in the soil of 61 days. After a year it would be virtually undetectable

A half-life of 61 days means that 1/64th remains after 1 year.  Apparently, it has been detected in silts from ponds more than a year after application.  

Glyphosate can only function if the molecule is free

Function as an herbicide perhaps but what else does it do?

All I am really saying is that I simply don't know for sure and nor does anyone else, the jury is still out.  I won't be using any.

[gobs]

You are right about solvents, Mushy, but there are a lot of other problems as well. According to a Hungarian Uni's site Denmark is also banning it or similar, as the rising levels of contamination in surface waters are raising more concern about health issues.

I'm going to borrow one of Uncle Rob's links here, I hope he won't mind.
 LINK

[mushroom]

Doesn't werk fer me !

Well glyphosate has only been available as a herbicide for maybe 35 years and that is a very short time indeed with regards to possible side-effects on an ecosystem.  It took longer than that to learn that DDT decreased raptor populations by making their egg shells too thin to support weight of the parent bird.

The speed and sophistication of research these days is by far and away superior to what it was when environmental impact of DDT was being researched. Years ago, environmental impact was not looked at anywhere near as closely as it has in the last, say, 10 years. I'd say 35 years or so is quite a reasonable time to look for side-effects considering a large percentage of the biosphere has a life cycle well inside that period, and also considering that at the time of DDT, they weren't looking for side effects with the same rigour as nowadays.

RoundUp made many many millions of dollars for Monsanto as a herbicide and genetically modified maize and soya beans (resistant to glyphosate) will make them $billions$ more.  Plenty of profit to fund advertising (and research) supporting the idea that it is "neutralised on contact with soil". Mmmmmm.

I think 'neutralised on contact with soil' is there because the average user isn't going to be able to get his head around "adsorbed onto soil particles and so deactivated". It's not like we have to believe Mosanto - the half life of a soil contaminant could be determined by any competent analytical lab.
And 'half life' does not mean 'active life' regarding glyp. It means 'that which can be detected'

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate which includes "Health concerns : There are concerns about the effects of glyphosate (and Roundup) on non-plant species even including on possible human reproductive dysfunction.  ... An in-vitro study has suggested glyphosate may have an effect on progesterone production in mammalian cells and affect mortality of placental cells in-vitro. Whether these studies classify glyphosate as an endocrine disruptor is a matter of debate."

For stuff like this, I tend to use wikkipedia as a last resort - "may have an effect in-vitro" can be said about anything. In the last link I posted, there is a table giving comparitive values against other substances, salt being one of them.

A half-life of 61 days means that 1/64th remains after 1 year.  Apparently, it has been detected in silts from ponds more than a year after application.

But 'detection' does not mean 'active', as described previously.  

Glyphosate can only function if the molecule is free

Function as an herbicide perhaps but what else does it do?

What can it do, as it is bound?

I think it is unfair to compare DDT with glyp, because glyp is targeted, whereas DDT is broadly toxic. Glyp acts on the shikimic acid metabolic pathway which is found only in higher plants.

There are dangers with inappropiate use, and there are issues with the use of surfacants in conjunction with glyp - these can be highly irritating. But the idea that residues of glyp itself causing problems is not borne out by evidence.

All I am really saying is that I simply don't know for sure and nor does anyone else

There is no such thing as "for sure", there is only theory, probability and evidence

I won't be using any.

I can see why you'd not want to use glyp or anything like it, given that according to your website, your site has always been organic in the past. I mean nowadays, "organic" is very marketable and desirable. But that's a different arguement!  

[mushroom]

You are right about solvents, Mushy, but there are a lot of other problems as well. According to a Hungarian Uni's site Denmark is also banning it or similar, as the rising levels of contamination in surface waters are raising more concern about health issues.

I'm going to borrow one of Uncle Rob's links here, I hope he won't mind.
 LINK

That site appears to be a political site against pesticides/herbicides in general, making me disinclined to beleive what they have to say. I'll put more faith in scientific papers, paying particular attention to what journal they're published in, and who is sponsoring them.  

[gobs]

Mushy, suggesting that other than the manufacturer's view is political dogma is a bit silly. :roll:
This is a toxins awareness organization in the US, the equivalent of whom you are linking to in the UK.  The article of the later(if you read it in full) we understand quite differently.

But if you want scientific research, here you are, just one of the many.
LINK

[mushroom]

Mushy, suggesting that other than the manufacturer's view is political dogma is a bit silly. :roll:

That's not what I said. What I actually said was this:

I'll put more faith in scientific papers, paying particular attention to what journal they're published in, and who is sponsoring them.

This implies that I'll credit independent research more than one published by the manufacturer or a political organisation.

But if you want scientific research, here you are, just one of the many.
LINK

looking at this now

[gobs]

And here is about how fast they biodegrade.

Denmark

fish

[mushroom]

And here is about how fast they biodegrade.

Denmark

Would you call 1m deep water "groundwater"? I think of groundwater as water that you have to sink a borehole into then pump out, to get it. This implies depths significantly greater than 1 metre. I'd say 1 metre is still the topsoil in a farm setting, where the soil is ploughed by tractor, and where glyp will be used the most. Also a political site.

fish

This is more worrying. But again - roundup, which is glyp+surfecant+other stuff, not glyp. The issue with the surfacants is already known. If they need a surfacant, then why not use soap?

[mushroom]

But if you want scientific research, here you are, just one of the many.
LINK

1. in vitro - this is important.
2. from the full paper:
"Surprisingly, Roundup is always more toxic than its active ingredient."

still, it's worrying

[WG.]

Well done folks, and who said debates couldn't be conducted politely.  

Now, would anyone care to offer an explanation as to why sperm count in men today is less than half of what it was post-WWII?  Strikes me that we are part of the ecosystem too ...

[mushroom]

Well done folks, and who said debates couldn't be conducted politely.  

Now, would anyone care to offer an explanation as to why sperm count in men today is less than half of what it was post-WWII?  Strikes me that we are part of the ecosystem too ...

That's easy - too tight trousers and underpants.. Goolies need freedom :!:
and too many protracted hot baths - showers are better
and everyone seems to live in a furnace these days - turn the thermostat down!

[mushroom]

then there are plasticisers that act as pseudo-oestrogens environmentally.

Too much sitting down.
Hormonal residues in meat (but this is only heresay - I haven't read it up)