[Zippy]

I garden my 400 sq feet of growing space (not including paths) organically and this time of year I am always pondering the same question:

I drive two miles out to a friendly stables and muck out the best rotted stuff from the pile into plastic sacks, lug them into the wheelbarrow and into the car, drive the 50 stone load to the allotment and turf it out onto the potato beds and fruit rows. To do it all takes three trips, a lot of muck and sweat.

The question is, what is the point of all this when most of the weight I am lugging around is water? Surely, composted vegetation is lighter to cart around and weight for weight higher in nutrient value than manure?

Yes, I could have a load delivered, but I prefer to see the animals and know the people I am getting it from so I know the livestock is well cared for, but ethics aside, I wonder if going veganic would not be cleaner, lighter, easier on my back and my car and just pplain more efficient than carting a load of water heavy muck around?

Let the debate begin ...

[DD.]

I wouldn't have thought there'd be more nutrients in composted vegetation than manure.

The humus is good for soil structure, but it needs supplementing surely?

[Zippy]

I'm wondering what the comparison would be between say horse manure and home grown compost if you could compare their dry weight.

I expect nitrogen would still be higher in manure compared to vegetable compost, but I doubt potassium and phosphorous would be all that different and I would expect vegetable compost to be higher in fibre and other trace minerals than manure. However, nitrogen levels could be raised without using animal manures by using green manure crops or even coffee grounds if you could get hold of enough smells nicer in your car boot as well!

Just to add - lawn mowings are high in nitrogen as well; probably more than most manures (apart from poultry), comparing dry weights that is.

[Rampant_Weasel]

i think the problem cab be solved by not collecting the manure after heavy rain.
collecting it at the end of the summer when its been dry for a while (in theory lol) takes the weight down i find.

[Zippy]

... so not collecting it as need, but collecting and storing it up in the dry season for later.  I like that idea, thanks.

Could just keep it in bags until it is ready to spread - would have to be behind my shed though as some folk will nick anything! Or fill a couple of daleks with it loose.

[Foghorn-Leghorn]

Some of the best manure is the stuff that's left to rot down in bags - get it when it's not absorbed loads of water although still pretty fresh so all the nutrients are still in it and not leached into the soil from loads of rain on it and just leave it to stew in its own juices (nice!) until needed.

[Zippy]

Thanks Foghorn, I like that idea. I am looking forward to next year now where I collect in July-August when hopefully it will be drier and leave it in its bags as you say and spread around now. On the fruit beds i guess i could just leave the bags along the rows and split them in late autumn and keep the other bags under hedegrows, behind the shed and the like and spread on the potato plot when I'm ready.

I'm glad I posed the questions now!

[Foghorn-Leghorn]

How well do you know the people at the stables where you get your 'oss muck from?

I'm just wondering if there is anyone there who skips their stables out using rubber gloves (it's amazing how many do to save bedding) and if they'd be willing to skip out straight into bags for you if you provided said bags.  You then get minimum bedding in there and maximum poo - less rotting down - and the hard part of shovelling is done for you. 
You could then just bob up every few weeks or so when passing and take the bags that are ready, rather than doing one mammoth trip!

Just a thought but I know you'd need to be on reasonable terms with someone at the yard.  Perhaps you could offer fresh produce as a bit of an incentive!

[Pip Judgeford]

  You then get minimum bedding in there and maximum poo

I find the bedding provides useful carbon for the compost heap (that critical carbon/nitorgen ratio) , and can keep the total mix from being too sloppy, so I prefer a mix rather than straight poo.

On the manure v's vegeable matter: Manure also has micro organisms and their metabolic by-products and surely must then be providing something extra over the equivalent dry weight etc of vegetable matter?  Not sure if this is so true for chook poo but could be relevant for cow & horse poo.

Pip

[chriscross1966]

I've got an arrangement with the livery/riding school that I get my manure from that they clear their fields out ionto bags if I leave them adn I take a trailer load away every few weeks as and when I ca nget over there.If they run out of bags they stick a heap nerxt to a field entrance adn I'll shovel  it into dumpy bags on the trailer....; worked well for me this summer.
Upside is there's no bedding and one look at the fields will tell you they're not spraying anything nasty on them, downside is of course weed seeds in the manure, but it's all just annual stuff you can hoe off easily enough..... I'm expecting to put about 8 tons on my half-plot this winter.... I guess I pick up about 3/4 of a ton at a time...

chrisc

[Zippy]

Also in my case there is nothing nasty sprayed on the meadow grass but even the stable/animal owner who buys the bedding and eating hay in may not know whether this has been sprayed with ammo down the line and passed onto the manure in this way.  In your case there is no bedding but in my case it is bucketed out with the manure to rot down together.

Its a bit of a game of roulette, even when pulling manure off an organically run site; one of the arguments against using animal manure from any business, farming or leisure. I have put on about 100 stone of the stuff on selected beds and i'm now with fingers crossed.