Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: Growster... on June 16, 2015, 06:11
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There's a fascinating video here, sponsored by Tesco, who buy their tomatoes from a gigantic greenhouse complex near Ramsgate.
If you buy tomatoes from this well-known grocers, you'll probably see 'Thanet Earth', as the supplier, and they have a great website as well. I used to drive past it when we had a scheme in Broadstairs, and the greenhouses cover many acres, and actually look quite interesting.
One fact in their own website emerged, which prompted an email to them, in that they claim that their tomato plants get to fifteen metres high, which to me is astonishing! I had a very pleasant reply back, copied here: -
Dear (Growster),
My name is Gert and I'm the tomato grower at Thanet Earth. To find the reason your plants won't grow more than 6 trusses, we need to establish whether it's the conditions the plants are grown in or if you are growing determinite varieties.
Tomatoes like cool conditions rather than hot and dry conditions. Our greenhouses temperatures are often cooler inside than the outside temperatures. The cooler you grow, the more plant vigour you'll get. And the more vigour the plant keeps, the longer it will grow.
Light is most important for growth of the plant, so make sure the plants get as much light as possible to convert as much solar energy into glucose.
Last but not least, we grow F1 hybrids (never from GMO), which are indeterminite. This means they will keep growing all the time. Then there are determinite varieties that grow just a few trusses and then stop growing. Many gardeners varieties are determinite.
When you watch the Tesco video, all is explained, but by my calculations, fifteen metres at three trusses per metre must mean about a hundred pounds of toms per plant...
And all from Sunny Kent, which can't be bad!
RFm1ovmS8es
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Astonishing! I thought they all grew to 5ft the same as ours! Interesting that they thrive in cooler conditions too. I thought they liked ot hot. Live and learn eh ? Door wide open from now on then ! Thanks for that Growst 👍
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Astonishing! I thought they all grew to 5ft the same as ours! Interesting that they thrive in cooler conditions too. I thought they liked ot hot. Live and learn eh ? Door wide open from now on then ! Thanks for that Growst 👍
It's a pleasure, Steve - thank you!
I know it's a bit of advertising, but we still shudder when we see veg brought in from Morocco or further afield these days, and a bit of a buzz for homegrown stuff is always good value!
Still, fifteen metres! Phew...;0)
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Good gracious! The video was fascinating - all the obvious care and attention and environmentally friendly methods (I know it was a promo vid for Tesco)...but it did look like home grown produce, albeit produced on a vast scale...so...why do ALL supermarket toms taste of nothing? Or have I just told myself that if they're 'Supermarket - they can't be any good?
:unsure:
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Interesting about the height they get to, as two years ago when I went to Wisley, their tomatoes in greenhouses were around 8 feet and I thought that was good!!
The comment about them not liking it hot and dry is very true of course, and we all aim not to keep them dry .... but sometimes ......
Nice reply, Growster :D :D
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why do ALL supermarket toms taste of nothing?
Some are actually quite good and I have been known to save seed, to grow, from Piccolinos, cos they were so nice ;)
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The piccolos are about the best tasting supermarket toms i have tried and as Mumofstig said even better grown at home.
I think that optimum growing conditions for the supermarket verses the taste of a freshly picked fully ripe tomato from a hot greenhouse is a no contest !
Quantity and shelf life is their priority but not mine ! :)
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Thanet Earth certainly has impressive 'green' credentials, but it's still hard to believe that such intensive growing techniques can really deliver the best flavour as well as everything else the growers (and Tossco) are looking for.
Having been down to a family wedding at a hotel in Battle over the weekend I had the rare treat of a cooked full English breakfast on Sunday morning. The (sort of) grilled slice of beefsteak tomato, which at this time of year was almost certainly hothouse grown, managed to fall short in every department a tomato possibly could - it had virtually no colour, no taste, and somehow managed to be soggy on the outside but tough and chewy in the middle! :nowink:
Expecting far better things from my Marmande beefsteak tomatoes this year! ;)
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What can Gert possibly know - he can't even say tomato correctly :D ::)
Oi John .. Get yourself on a field trip and get us the insider scoop. Root stocks, feed and water regimes , C02 enrichment levels.
I'd certainly like a 50ft sungold vine :lol: Ohh competition idea for next season - most number of trusses on a vine ;)
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This year, some of my cherry toms have grown 3ft, maybe 3ft6ins, tall before they even produced a flower truss.
So they will end up tall..................................just with not much fruit on :(
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A couple of years ago we went to the open day at Wight Salads which grow tomatoes here on the Island. It was a fascinating trip and we too were astounded by the height to which the tomatoes grow. It looks as though both systems are similar.
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Tomatoes are tender perennials which we grow as annuals. Determinate varieties grow to a given size and then stop, Indeterminate varieties will keep on growing 'forever' given the right conditions.
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I'd certainly like a 50ft sungold vine :lol:
Me too, but I think we might find ourselves somewhat challenged for space in a domestic greenhouse :lol: All that laying vines along and up would mean I would end up in next doors garden and up one of their garden trees before I even got close to what they are doing :lol:
It is quite a set-up though 8)
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I'm just fascinated by the way they have invested so much money and have taken the plunge - especially with someone like Tesco as their main market!
The fifteen metre plants are clearly lowered when they have no low point production, and they just keep growing, as Mr Gert says!
I was delighted to even get a reply, even a detailed, personal and interested response, so I'm afraid that an ageing Growster ticks a few boxes in their direction, and long may they thrive!
The other veg they grow is just as interesting, - especially the peppers!
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Fascinated by the size of these toms. One question on the tomato food .....anyone know if it goes off in storage??
I am aware that some of my bottles might have been bought in prehistoric times.😳😳😳😳😳
Cheers HH
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they grow under controlled and artificial light and heat 24 / 7 (so no night time for the plants), plus with all the controlled chemical feeds going into them no wonder they grow taller than home grown.
don't taste any where near as good as home grown. i don't even waste my money on supermarket toms now, if there's none in the garden i do with out.
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Did anyone else pick up on the comment at the beginningvthat they were grown in Rockwool substrate? That's if I heard it correctly. So with no soil of any kind and presumably lots of chemical feed, it's no wonder they dont taste as good as home grown.
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This IS the stuff of Science Fiction and we have every right to feel a little uneasy. We're close to the old Sci Fi movies where scientists were drafted in to help feed an ever-growing population - and some of the solutions make scary viewing! I agree Steve - just how many chemicals are we actually consuming when we buy commercially produced 'food'? We'll all be glowing in the dark next! ???
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Of course, you're right, Steve. If you look at their own website, you can clearly see the media in which the toms are grown!
We like to grow toms in both the greenhouse and outside, especially down at The Patch, where we have about fifty this year. The outside ones down there are planted in as much manurey soil as possible, and the flavour we get from these is so much better than those grown in compost in big pots!
But we do get them that much earlier from the greenhouse!
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Hydroponic culture is pretty standard in these sort of set-ups. I have dabbled myself in the past and produced some fairly decent tomatoes. Its not so far removed from growing in gro-bags or pots and using tomato feed, but further away from growing in soil and using natural feeds like comfrey :)
Gert did mention they use friendly bugs as biological controls, so not too many chemicals used. I eat supermarket tomatoes without too many worries, but obviously ignore them totally when my own homegrown ones are available :D
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It seems that Marmande are a popular variety this year, and we're hoping for big results, as they're huge and easier to skin for freezing!
They're grown outside mainly (I assume) as they're nearly a summer staple in France, and perhaps a flinty soil could make for big flavour as well.
We'll see one way or another...
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I'm hedging my bets by growing one Marmande outside and one in the GH - first time with these and hoping to at least partly rediscover the long forgotten joys of eating beefsteak tomato salad dressed with olive oil and possibly garlic in countries like Italy and Greece. :)
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I'm hedging my bets by growing one Marmande outside and one in the GH - first time with these and hoping to at least partly rediscover the long forgotten joys of eating beefsteak tomato salad dressed with olive oil and possibly garlic in countries like Italy and Greece. :)
You can always live in hope - I don't much fancy the other option :lol: - :ohmy:
Live in hope or Die in despair. Dombey & Son by Charles Dickens
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Not quite that bad Mum - don't really know why but I'm not expecting beefsteaks to be as easy as smaller varieties, but despair would only be a matter of wondering whether to buy a few from the supermarket (and then not doing so! :lol:)
Marmande are sometimes unhelpfully described as 'semi-bush' - does anyone have any idea what that means in practice (remove just half the side shoots? ::))
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Marmande are sometimes unhelpfully described as 'semi-bush' - does anyone have any idea what that means in practice (remove just half the side shoots? ::))
Semi-Bush or Semi-Determinate are sort of halfway between Determinate and Indeterminate (they're better described as semi-indeterminate as they have fruit along the vine). They usually grow to about 4ft tall and then stop with straggly side-shoots. Because they only grow 4ft or so, there's less space for fruit trusses on each vine so to increase the quantity of fruit its a good idea to let a number of sideshoots develop which then need to be independently supported.
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If you want to keep it bushy just nip off any upward growth above flower trusses, and allow all the sideshoots to grow/fruit.
If you'd rather it grew more upright, only allow a few sideshoots from lower down - each of these may each need their own cane.
Either way they need quite a bit of support when they're carrying lot of fruit ;)
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Amazing the way they grow things commercially.
But I have yet to taste a shop bought tomato that tastes anywhere near a home grown one.
Green credentials fail though, as the plastic trays you buy them in have to go in the normal bin.
What temperatures were they growing them at?
I grow Marmande, always outside. They do require support as the fruits are heavy and they are great croppers.
In pots, I place two plants, this helps to balance the load over the pot using canes, pegs and string. I tie stones to the lower end of the string.
Marmande are semi determinate, so I do leave a few side shoots, normally one on each truss and alternate sides.
I let them grow to 4 only trusses, after removing the lower leaf truss, makes the main stem sturdier.
I've shown my technique below, but the plant is too small yet to be trussed onto the string support.
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Lest we forget, the process of digging, muck spreading, weeding, feeding and watering to grow temperamental, selectively bred vegetables is not particularly 'natural' either. But without it we wouldn't be able to support a world population in the billions. And just because a small number of people like to do all of the above 'organically', that doesn't mean we can feed the world that way. Not with current methods, at any rate.
People will have their own ideas of where they're comfortable drawing the line. Is it just about taste? What if hydroponic tomatoes tasted great?
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Marmande are sometimes unhelpfully described as 'semi-bush' - does anyone have any idea what that means in practice (remove just half the side shoots? ::))
My suggestion was intended to be tongue in cheek, but turns out to be somewhere near the recommended practice - thanks for the tips HG22 and MoS. ;)
Edit: Thanks to Lettice too - hadn't noticed you'd edited your post with further tips. ;)
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People will have their own ideas of where they're comfortable drawing the line. Is it just about taste? What if hydroponic tomatoes tasted great?
Did you ever see this article on the GM tomatoes which were loved by the population at large (at the time) because they could be picked ripe, tasted excellent, and lasted on the shelf but killed off by a combination of Monsanto a change in public perception of GM.
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While I do not want to disagree with anything that has been said re shop bought or home grown. I can assure anybody however that the tomatoes I grow here in my garden are better... no not better... MUCH BETTER than anything you can buy from Tesco or any other super market for that matter THERE IS NO COMPARISON! When you have tasted a nice five inch diameter beef tomato made into a nice Caprese salad or made a nice sauce with some freshly picked San Marzano or made a salad with some nice cherry Roma you will know... but I think I would just be echoing most growers on here :)
ps they only grow a couple of metres high though ! and also Marmande are one o the very best tomatoes to grow outside in a sunny warm climate!
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Isn't comparing growing small scale/personal use to growing for market/commercial use kind of comparing apples to oranges though? I don't have to have or expect to have tomatoes that are perfect looking. They can be prone to cracking and or thin skinned because they're aren't getting shipped (anywhere except from the plant to my mouth!) At home I have the luxury of growing based primarily on flavor. Market gardens and commericial farms have different priorities to consider. They will likely be looking for a variety that produces uniform fruit, that can handle the rigors of shipping and that produce generously. There's also a huge difference in the time between harvest and consumption. Apples and oranges. 🍎🍊
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That is the difference between then and now! Back in the day people did not expect to buy tomatoes in the winter time and to be totally honest winter bought tomatoes are total CXXX and not worth buying. People now expect to buy vegs and fruit that are not in season that is wrong and totally screws up the environment... flying pineapples halfway round the world make sense only as a return trip. Unfortunately its the world we live in... and are trying to destroy!
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I know its getting well off topic but...
I would rather have shop bought tomatoes to supplement my seasonal produce than no tomatoes at all (I don't want to live on swede through the winter). I'm impressed by the commercial growers mainly by their ability to produce tomatoes all year round in a climate that struggles to produce many if you grow them outdoors).
Have you seen the articles about growing tomatoes in Iceland?
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Thanks for that , very interesting.
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While I do not want to disagree with anything that has been said re shop bought or home grown. I can assure anybody however that the tomatoes I grow here in my garden are better... no not better... MUCH BETTER than anything you can buy from Tesco or any other super market for that matter THERE IS NO COMPARISON! When you have tasted a nice five inch diameter beef tomato made into a nice Caprese salad or made a nice sauce with some freshly picked San Marzano or made a salad with some nice cherry Roma you will know... but I think I would just be echoing most growers on here :)
ps they only grow a couple of metres high though ! and also Marmande are one o the very best tomatoes to grow outside in a sunny warm climate!
Thanks, Jambop, it's because Marmande are a well-known tom in France, that I thought on the lines of 'Well, if they can grow them commercially, and sell 'em well, they must be a good bet'!
Ours are in a good poopy bed, and will be gazed at for weeks to come, that is until we get to about four trusses, when I expect that the English weather will prohibit further growth.
Interesting variety, Marmande!
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Growster the Marmande tomato is a lovely sweet tomato and can be used in salad, cooked or juiced. I think where it fails for the modern consumer is that the shape is or can be very irregular ... not a problem for those who seek flavour first and aspect a distant second. I you get a good warm sunny summer as we do down here in SW France you are rewarded with a wonderful large ribbed sweet tomato... and you can save the seed for the next year!
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be ready to offer some support to those trusses they can be very big!
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Jampop you are making me nostalgic for my holidays with our kids near Perpignan in the 1980s.
Unfortunately our summers are not uniformly warm let alone hot some poor souls had a frost last week.
Marmande is a great tomato but we have to muddle along with whatever we can persuade to grow here in England before the frosts arrive again. I am growing RHS recommended Sweet Million which I am assured is a heavy cropping cherry .......fingers and toes crossed this will come true.😊😊
Enjoy the sun & wine & Marmande toms I am only a teeny bit envious 😉😉😉
Cheers HH