[lfcevans]

we tried the real seed company this year, proper non hybrid seeds that you can collect your own seed from the plants for next year, a little bit more expensive for some seeds, but you get plenty in a pack.
Grendel

I`ve just spent £35 on seed for my allotment from the "real seed company". I like the idea of saving the seed from what I grow and sowing it next year and getting the same crop.

I have grown F1 varieties before in my garden, with great results, and have saved some seed to grow the following year, with poor results. I dont like the idea of having to pay out for new seeds year after year.

So as long as I get the desired results from the seeds I have bought this year, I will hope to get similar results year after year. It does really depend aswel on what the plants were pollinated with. If other allotmenteers are growing F1 hybrids and the insects pollinate my plants with theirs, then the seed I save may well be useless next year.

[JamesBartlett]

we tried the real seed company this year, proper non hybrid seeds that you can collect your own seed from the plants for next year, a little bit more expensive for some seeds, but you get plenty in a pack.
Grendel

I'm going to try these for my first stab at allotment growing. They have some really interesting heritage varieties. And I'm liking the fact that they've tested and grown them all themselves so that the blurb isn't some marketing person's idea of a description but an actual description of how it grew. And the fact that they positively encourage you to save seed is great, definitely the way forward.

[mumofstig]

Just bear in mind that if they cross- pollinate with other varieties on your site, whether f1 or not, they will not grow true to type next year...............

[JayG]

Some great replies on this topic and I think it all goes to show what a big subject it is!

My two penn'orth would be about saving your seeds for subsequent years.

Seeds collected from plants grown from F1 seeds will not breed true the following year, seeds from open pollinated plants may or may not depending on whether they have cross pollinated or not, and that depends partly on the type of plant and partly on luck!

Peas almost never cross-pollinate, runner beans readily do but it depends on what other varieties are being grown locally (and how near!), whereas cucurbits (especially squashes) will do so with reckless abandon, although there are exceptions (eg cucumbers won't cross with squashes.)

Of course you can take steps to prevent cross-pollination of your favourite varieties but it involves much more work than I suspect most people would be prepared to take on!

Mum's point about producing genetically stable versions of F1 varieties is interesting; I think it's probably not too cynical to say that it is not in the seed companies' interests to do so! 

[grendel]

http://www.realseeds.co.uk/
these were the people we went to, they grow all of the seeds and pick them for the best flavours etc, we are looking forward to growing them this year.
Grendel

[TheSpartacat]

Mum's point about producing genetically stable versions of F1 varieties is interesting; I think it's probably not too cynical to say that it is not in the seed companies' interests to do so! 

Yup inclined to be equally as cynical. They are so expensive to develop, so if they stabilised easily then they would not get their projected earnings from them.
I equally take on board and agree with Mum's point about some varieties dying out because of natural improvements, there are some great modern open pollinated varieties too, but equally, some of the varieties brought back from the brink of extinction from places like realseeds are really fantastic!
I would heartily recommend both Cupidon beans and Bijou mangetout from on there- they surpassed all my expectations and far superior to previous varieties i'd grown!
And I don't have to buy any for next year! Yay! I've more seeds than i started out with, which I've already passed on to friends and family!

French beans don't cross too easily either, you can grow a few varieties as long as they're not right next to each other. You may get some rogue plants in your next season but the advice is to pull them as soon as you notice them. 
Tomatoes too, seldom cross, as flowers are generally self fertile.

[zazen999]

we tried the real seed company this year, proper non hybrid seeds that you can collect your own seed from the plants for next year, a little bit more expensive for some seeds, but you get plenty in a pack.
Grendel

I`ve just spent £35 on seed for my allotment from the "real seed company". I like the idea of saving the seed from what I grow and sowing it next year and getting the same crop.

I have grown F1 varieties before in my garden, with great results, and have saved some seed to grow the following year, with poor results. I dont like the idea of having to pay out for new seeds year after year.

Wow -  that's alot of £££

Have you thought of getting a seed circle up and running, where each of you save 3-4 types and then swap? It means you all get a good range without having to save endless seeds all year round - saving it is good but processing it can be a nightmare with too many types.

Says she who hasn't even sorted out last year's Sanguina beetroot seeds.

[rowlandwells]

once again mumofstig you have replied in a what i would call well a balanced view on this subject together with a very practical answer to all 

thank you   

[oldcow]

I agree that some of the F1 are not necessarily the best for home grower. Most of us are growing for flavour, not for looks, size or uniformity (unlike commercial growers for which most of the F1 were developed). I believe that a lot of the tasteless food we get in supermarkets is F1 bred for size, look and durability and not for flavour.
I also think that hybrids that you cannot save seed from are a very bad trend. So many traditional varieties are disappearing, and one day Monsanto & similar companies might very well end up owning literally the key to life and death if F1s replace open pollinated varieties: entire populations might completely depend on these companies to grow their food. I know it might sound crazy, but looking at what's happening in some countries in the third world I think there is cause for concern.
Sometimes the "weakness" of some open pollinated varieties is due to the fact that we try to grow varieties that are not suitable for the soil and climate where we are. In this case, looking for varieties that are local or from similar climates might make a huge difference.
I wouldn't say "never use F1s", but I use them as little as possible. Like other people who wrote on this thread, I buy seeds from realseed.co.uk, and frankly they have worked wonderfully.

[TheSpartacat]

I know it might sound crazy, but looking at what's happening in some countries in the third world I think there is cause for concern.

It doesnt sound crazy oldcow...
A quote, in their own words:
"What you are seeing is not just a consolidation of seed companies, it’s really a consolidation of the entire food chain." - Robert Fraley, co-president of Monsanto's agricultural sector 1996

But lets not confuse F1 with Monsanto's terminator seed. Monsanto terminator seed are designed produce precisely nothing if saved.
You CAN produce a next generation from F1 seeds, but the traits can be any combination of those bred to create the F1 variety and these might not be desirable traits. And I wouldn't confuse Monsanto ethics with those of the smaller seed companies and breeders producing F1- they're poles apart

[rowlandwells]

well F1 seed are still being a popular topic i thought i would just let you know i have just added a new F1 cabbage to my next years seed list

the variety in question is F1 green rich as described in the catalogue a high quality' cabbage that can be eaten raw or cooked matures in 70 days it produces a large, flat head weighing 1.5-kg green in colour and sweet flavour

so i'me going to give it a try. by the way i was in a well known supermarket the other day and those uniform tasteless cabbages where selling like hot cakes why would people want to buy those let's face it a cabbage is not a cabbage till the slugs or white fly have had there pickings you can't beet a good slug ridden cabbage

[mumofstig]

You have made them sound so appetizing that I may just go out and cut one of my own

[compostqueen]

Surprisingly the RHS Award of Merit does not include FLAVOUR in its criteria

Funny that, as we all grow for flavour don't we

Perhaps F1's are more about the show bench.

[Swing Swang]

Just to add that the issue of 'everything cropping at once' with some F1s can be resolved in many cases with successional sowing.

[zazen999]

I usually grow 2 F1s; Sungold Tomato and Goldrush Courgette.

This year, I bought 1 Sungold plant and 1 Goldrush Courgette plant.

The courgette was absolutely the worst grower - 3 tiny fruits really late in the season, but the Sungold produced masses of fruit - some are still in the fridge waiting to be eaten. I took lots of sideshoots off and re-rooted them so got about 20 plants from one eventually.

For me, the 3 things that were worth growing F1 were the 2 above; and sweetcorn; but after last year I'm sticking to just sweetcorn now......there were tomatoes just as good as sungold and goldrush just didn't deliver.