[Growster...]

I've recently had an upper-and-downer with my electricity supplier, which charges nothing for night-time power, but an enhanced sum for daytime use.

We're all electric with some pretty powerful night storage heaters (plus an open fire for cold evenings).

My beef is that for some reason, the 'seven-hour' slot is broken up into two sessions, between 22:30 and 00:30am, and then 02:30 - 07:30am.

My dilemma is that at around 2:00am, I often hear the timed immersion heater kick in, and as this seems to be outside the 'cheap' zone, presumably I'm paying full whack at that point?

Have I got this all wrong? The supply company is pretty useless, so perhaps it's a question for The National Grid?

Answers on a red demand letter please..;0)

[madcat]

We  are like you - which electric company are you with?  And what controls your switching - do you have a telemeter that switches off an external signal or a timeswitch?  If you can give me those two bits of info, I can probably find out more for you ...

[JayG]

Is this relevant to your situation Growster?

If possible, you should have your night storage heaters and hot water boiler wired on a separate circuit, which switches on when the night-time off-peak rate starts.

Here are some other considerations you need to think carefully about:

1) Whether you can use more than half your electricity during the night – if not, you’ll probably end up paying over the odds because you’re using too much electricity during the day at the more expensive rate

2) Whether your appliances have timers – because unless you regularly stay up until midnight or 1am, you’ll need to set a timer to switch them on at night when the Economy 7 off-peak hours start.

Source: https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/economy-7.html

[Growster...]

We  are like you - which electric company are you with?  And what controls your switching - do you have a telemeter that switches off an external signal or a timeswitch?  If you can give me those two bits of info, I can probably find out more for you ...

We're with Ebico, Madcat.

The lady who writes the emails is always polite and willing to help, but the 'technics' are not really helpful, or very knowledgeable as far as I can see.

Our meter is a more recent one, with a readout that shows a big total number, then '1', then '2'. The '1' is daytime , the '2' is night-time usage.

They've had photographs of the meter, descriptions etc, and more than emough to identify the situation, and still cannot answer the question, so the cynic in me assumes that like most energy companies, they're out there to rip you off in some way. I think this 'window' is one of the ways.

Perhaps an Ofgen letter is called for?

To answer your specific question though, we don't have a telemeter as far as I can gather, just a white box covered in cobwebs... The fuse boxes are clearly marked though, with two saying 'heaters'.

[Growster...]

Thank you Jay. This is very helpful.

See above to Madcat though!

[madcat]

Ebico are on the benign side of electricity suppliers ... closer to the angels than many.  I assume you are on the old night owl tariff, which is a pretty good deal if you can move a lot of your load to overnight.  You have a 2 rate meter, one for the low rate and one for the day.    So the question is when is overnight and what is switching your heaters and hot water on?

I think the spidery white box is a telemeter - which is not the same thing as a smart meter!  A telemeter is a nice dumb little box that takes the time off the broadcast time signal and uses it to know when to switch between rate 1 and rate 2.  It would be very unusual to have the low rate time zone in an Economy 7 tariff (E7) broken into 2 separate shorter time periods ... Humm.  There is nothing in the t&cs for ebico to indicate that they have told the meter operator to do that and I cant think that any distribution company would require it.

So .... when we are working on Greenwich Mean Time - like now - the E7 low rate is 12 midnight to 7am plus or minus a few minutes (just so the network doesnt get clobbered by all the storage heaters in a town coming on at the same time!).  The teleswitch will switch the second (heat and hot water) circuits on and move all the charging onto the second rate, and then turn it all back at 7am.  During British Summer time that moves to 1am to 8am.  One problem could be that your meter hasnt got the right time - odd since it should come off the air - but if you keep pressing the display button it should eventually give you the date and time it thinks it is. 

Why do you think that you are going back onto rate 2 so early and back to rate 1 at half past midnight? 

[Goosegirl]

Madcat, or should I call you a very, very savvy tiger? We don't have storage heaters so don't use E7, but it sounds a nightmare to sort out unless you have someone in the know to help you out. Just digressing a little, because we don't have CH we've got an open fire which we keep in overnight unless it's not needed, a small convector heater in the back room which can be moved into the main room if needed, underfloor heating in our small bathroom and an immersion heater with timers, two freezers and a fridge-freezer in the garage which we checked to make sure they're suitable for outside use, and a paraffin heater in case we get a real Arctic blasting! Would we be better off keeping to that, or doing what Growster's done with storage heaters?
Tell you what, your info should sort it out for him and if it does, you'll get a big thank you from his wine store!

[madcat]

It used to be my day job!

Seriously - the important first question is - do you have access to mains gas?  If you do, a wet central heating system and a combi boiler is the cheapest way to do heating and hot water.  If you dont (like us and presumably Growster) then it get more complicated.  Your freezers use two fifths of nothing so dont worry about them from that point of view.  A multi fuel burner is more efficient and cleaner and better for the air quality in the house than an open fire - but they cost.  If you get one, get one with a back boiler to heat your water as well.  You also need to remember that coping with a fire will get harder as you get older, so if you are going to make a change, do it while you can cope!  Storage heaters are a major rewiring job - only worth considering if you are doing a major refurb., and then I would start talking about heat pumps.  Otherwise really, really think about insulation - so much cheaper and easier and so effective.  Roof, walls if poss., curtains, draught excluders etc etc

[Growster...]

Ebico are on the benign side of electricity suppliers ... closer to the angels than many.  I assume you are on the old night owl tariff, which is a pretty good deal if you can move a lot of your load to overnight.  You have a 2 rate meter, one for the low rate and one for the day.    So the question is when is overnight and what is switching your heaters and hot water on?

I think the spidery white box is a telemeter - which is not the same thing as a smart meter!  A telemeter is a nice dumb little box that takes the time off the broadcast time signal and uses it to know when to switch between rate 1 and rate 2.  It would be very unusual to have the low rate time zone in an Economy 7 tariff (E7) broken into 2 separate shorter time periods ... Humm.  There is nothing in the t&cs for ebico to indicate that they have told the meter operator to do that and I cant think that any distribution company would require it.

So .... when we are working on Greenwich Mean Time - like now - the E7 low rate is 12 midnight to 7am plus or minus a few minutes (just so the network doesnt get clobbered by all the storage heaters in a town coming on at the same time!).  The teleswitch will switch the second (heat and hot water) circuits on and move all the charging onto the second rate, and then turn it all back at 7am.  During British Summer time that moves to 1am to 8am.  One problem could be that your meter hasnt got the right time - odd since it should come off the air - but if you keep pressing the display button it should eventually give you the date and time it thinks it is. 

Why do you think that you are going back onto rate 2 so early and back to rate 1 at half past midnight?

This is very useful Madcat, thank you.

We are in the South East area, which has the times mentioned above. The Npower website shows this, and Ebico confirmed it (after I told them, they didn't seem to have a clue)!

The only reason I think the times/rates change is that I can hear the immersion heater kick in between the hours, so am not sure if the Econ 7 rate is being applied.

The pics below are the ones I sent Ebico, which may explain what we have got, poked away in some dark place which is forever England...

[mumofstig]

Is the immersion on its own timer? Cou;d you not set it so it comes on a little later, there would still be enough time to heat the tank on cheap-rate. I'm sure this is too simple an answer, and you would already have thought of it, if you could 

[Growster...]

Is the immersion on its own timer? Cou;d you not set it so it comes on a little later, there would still be enough time to heat the tank on cheap-rate. I'm sure this is too simple an answer, and you would already have thought of it, if you could 

Good point Mum - it is an Economy 7 Quartz, with a timer and/or a manual switch. There is also a boost switch, and it was fitted by BMS of Rolvenden. We've used them for years, and they are always very quick and reliable!

I reckon I could work the manual idea, as we use little hot water nowadays, so maybe a tweak in that direction could be the answer! It seems odd that we get 30 gallons of water to near scalding point overnight, then let it all cool down again... (Actually, it is in the airing cupboard, so it is doing a day-job I suppose!)

Hmmmm....

[Goosegirl]

Growster, you are losing heat somewhere so are all your pipes and hot water cylinder properly lagged because you seem to be heating your airing cupboard which is not a priority. Our immersion is on a simple timer with a booster if needed which we rarely use.

[Growster...]

Growster, you are losing heat somewhere so are all your pipes and hot water cylinder properly lagged because you seem to be heating your airing cupboard which is not a priority. Our immersion is on a simple timer with a booster if needed which we rarely use.

You're right of course, Goosey, but the tank is a dual immersion, with two 'plonks', one at the top, one at the bottom as they should be.

The bottom one does the work on the system, while the top one can be turned on if we want more hot water at an odd time. I've used it twice in two years...

All I want to know is do the electricity company charge me for power outside the silly hours described above!

I always assume we're ripped off by these companies, it's normal, like mis-trusting politicians, but if it's our pensions being spent on their foibles, so they need to be taken to task.

The job ain't finished yet!

[Growster...]

Apols for 'bumping' this up, but today I got a result!

£200.00 refund!

They 'lost' the first request, so I chased them and had to re-apply.

Then a nice email wanting new readings, and of course the 'statutory'* ten days to getting the refund paid in, but it has at last arrived!

* (= 'cooling off' period plus an extra ten day's interest')...

Next time (about end of August), I'll be even cannier, as they make up the account to the most recent reading before they tell you how much there is. Had I waited a few more days, my monthly direct debit would also have been taken into account, and I could have got more, but at least the dosh is safely in the vaults of Growsterbank Inc., now...

[jezza]

Hello there's a plant hire company near me who have just bought an electric 15 ton excavator I ASKED them if they were on economy 7 to charge it he says he wishes it was it's 415 volts £160 per night to charge it  jezza