worming

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jackieand glenn

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worming
« on: February 18, 2011, 17:23 »
hi all, could anyone give me some info on worming my chooks please. someone told me that if chooks had worms there would be tiny raised lumps on the shell, which i have on one egg. also if thats correct what do i use and can i still eat the eggs. thanks jackie

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louiseb22

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Re: worming
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 17:28 »
I havent heard about lumps on the egg, however if you need to worm them then the only sure way of getting rid is to use Flubenvet 1% mixed with there food for a 7 day course with no egg withdrawal period although selling them on whilst worming is a no no. I'm sure someone with a bit more knowledge will come along and clear up the egg lumps for you. hope this helps :)
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and 18 ducks/drakes/ducklings mix xxx

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wolverine

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Re: worming
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 07:43 »
I'm no expert but I have never heard of bumps on eggs being a sign of worms either .
worming should be done as a precautionary measure so don't wait till you have a problem flubenvet is cheap (about 15 pound) and just worm 2-3 times a year. the egg shell thing is interesting if true but like I said I've not heard  of that before

Runs off to check eggs on fridge for bumps ha ha ha  :D
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it."

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gladis

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Re: worming
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 08:01 »
how often should you worm chickens

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jackieand glenn

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Re: worming
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 09:22 »
hi all, it was the lady at my local animal feed shop that told me this about raised lumps on eggs. i have one that seems to have these tiny lumps, when you scrape them they come off to leave the shell still but white under neath where lump was. i have no idea. i will worm them just incase but wondered if anyone knew what this could be. ive just got them sorted after months of pecking, not just ths pecking order they were out to kill, treated for red mite etc and now this. o the joys, roll on the better weather.

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Sassy

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Re: worming
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 10:31 »
how often should you worm chickens

It really depends on how you keep them. If they have access to a large area ie free ranging they should not need to be wormed so often as the area will not become so burdened. If they are in  quite a small area with access to wild birds then more often is recommended. Everyone has different ideas on this. I would look at all the answers and decide which is going to suit you best. :)
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted!!

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peter rooster

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Re: worming
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2011, 11:42 »
Hi

I put cider viniger in the water just a few drops in the container. This seems to keep them at bay.

peter rooster
Is there any sound better than contented chickens rosey away, far better tha whale song!

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Rhiannon

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Re: worming
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 13:13 »
Mine are wormed every spring and aultumn with Flubenvet and every month with Vermex, no egg withdrawal as has been said with either . Flubenvet is very gentle i even use it in the fish :)

Its what i do but ive only been keeping chickens for a couple of years so im a novice . Mine have an enclosed run but its impossible to keep out wild birds , but i think id still do it anyway .

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Aunt Sally

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Re: worming
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 13:18 »
I've written an article which you can read here:

http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=4348.msg48401#msg48401

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hillfooter

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Re: worming
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 02:55 »
The "lumps" you describe on the eggs are I think calcium pips.  Here's a photo of what they look like.  The lumps are formed from small pimples of calcium which somehow have not been deposited evenly over the egg.  If they are rubbed they will disintergrate into tiny calcium beads and fall off leaving a chalky rough shell.  They are nothing to do with worms so far as I know.



The shells of such eggs are usually gritty or chalky and can be thin.  The egg shell is secreted by glands in the uterus and this condition can be caused by excess of Vitamin D3 causing excessive calcium absorption, or by heredity factors and is not generally associated with a disease.  Older hens are more susceptible than younger hens.  If you are feeding a calcium, cod liver oil, tuna or multivitamin supplement I'd stop doing that.  

The photo shown was an egg produced by a 3 year old Sussex chickens.  Such egg shell problems including thin shelled eggs often follow a moult when a chx body chemistry is returning to normal and is usually a temporary condition.

Signs of worms apart from finding them in the droppings are thin birds, weight loss while feeding well, foamy yellow  / green droppings, pale head, droopiness or depression, reduced eggs.   Gapeworm symptoms - coughing, gasping, yawning, closed eyes, head shaking.

Worming - it is generally advisable to alternate wormers annually to reduced worms resistance to the wormer.  

Flubenvet is a very effective wormer against many species of worm whereas I've never seen evidence or any scientific trial data which shows VermX which is basically expensive garlic to be effective.  Even the manufacturers publicity seems not to express a great deal of confidence since it also recommends regular testing for worms even in treated flocks.  I can't recall what it recommends if worms are found but probably to switch to an effective wormer!  I do know that VermX were forced to withdraw claims in it's advertising for the universal effectiveness of it's wormer by the Advertising Standards Agency in 2009 because of lack of evidence to justify their claims.  In fact the case related to worming horses and only evidence it provided I seem to recall was a student thesis study which I'm not sure was ever published in a scientific journal.  Anyway the ASA weren't too impressed.

Never heard of using cayenne pepper as a wormer nor do I place great credence on the anecdotal evidence cited for it's effectiveness.  How could we know that the lack of worms is down to the pepper and not some other factor such as control of intermediate hosts (insects), good sanitation, being raised on wire, feed, or other medication they were receiving, or climate related, or chicken breed.  A scientific test would involve a control group of identical birds which were not treated with the pepper but otherwise treated identically with the peppered chx.  If they showed signs of worms whereas the peppered ones were free then that may be the basis for a story.  It's a bit like the white powder I sprinkle to keep elephants off my birds.  When I'm told "but there are no elephants round here", I reply that the powder is very effective. :lol:  Think I'll stick with Flubenvet for the present.

HF
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 03:33 by hillfooter »
Truth through science.

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joyfull

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Re: worming
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 07:20 »
can I please point out that even free ranging birds need worming just as often as birds in a run - it's true the ground will not become so burdened from your birds but worms are also spread by wild birds and my garden and the surrounding fields get lots of wild birds coming in to feed.
Staffies are softer than you think.

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Rhiannon

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Re: worming
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 09:44 »
My feelings on VermX are tho i use it i dotn trust it , how logical and sensible is that, the above info is very interesting thank you :)

When you say alternate wormers apart from Flubenvet what would you reccomend as i notice a lot of the others require egg withdrawal and there fore I assume a lot more effective and stronger  ?

The egg you have pictured , the Blackrock  used to produce similar , i just rubbed it off as i assumed it was a calcium deposit   .

It always worries me worming chickens as i cant put a precise amount eg a pill down thier throats like i can with dogs , fish are very similar to chickens when wormed , X amount to so many litres of water .This is also Flubenvet .

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hillfooter

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Re: worming
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 12:43 »
My feelings on VermX are tho i use it i dotn trust it , how logical and sensible is that, the above info is very interesting thank you :)

When you say alternate wormers apart from Flubenvet what would you reccomend as i notice a lot of the others require egg withdrawal and there fore I assume a lot more effective and stronger  ?

The egg you have pictured , the Blackrock  used to produce similar , i just rubbed it off as i assumed it was a calcium deposit   .

It always worries me worming chickens as i cant put a precise amount eg a pill down thier throats like i can with dogs , fish are very similar to chickens when wormed , X amount to so many litres of water .This is also Flubenvet .

Just to be clear on VermX I'm not claiming it's ineffective it's just I haven't seen any evidence that it is and the website mainly talks about how wonderfully natural and pure it is and garlics age old known healing powers which doesn't impress me.

See this article for alternative wormers which although aimed at aviary birds is relevant to chickens.  It is written for New Zealand practise so the products mentioned may not be available in the UK I haven't done the research.

http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/lori/ar/worming.html

Panacur 2.5% is often prescribed by vets this needs two applications spaced 12 to 14 days apart.  In the above article the following dose rate is recommended.  "Crop dose 0.2 mls/100g of body weight if the bird weighs less than 400grams and 0.1 ml/100 grams in birds weighing more than 400grams".  However I'd suggest you consult a vet for dose rate and egg withdrawal advice.  It is based on Fenbendazole whereas Flubenvet is based on Flubendazole.  Maybe Aunt Sally will know whether these active ingredients are sufficiently different to not build resistance if alternated annually.  Perhaps her under the stair expert can help?

Other folksy remedies (apart from Cayenne pepper) sometimes mentioned are garlic and apple cider vinegar.  Although beloved of organic enthusiasts for curing many ills of chickens through to humans I wouldn't personally set any store by these.  Certainly the psuedo science based round ACV is dubious in the extreme.

This thread will answer all your questions on worming with Flubenvet (see page 3 mostly)

http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=70506.msg804751#msg804751

Best wishes
HF




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Rhiannon

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Re: worming
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 15:03 »
Very useful thank you , I know garlic was used by some dog breeders and still is unfortunatly for worming, its just something that scours the animal . A fellow breeder bought a pup from a guy who wormed this way and the pup bless it was riddled at 8 weeks.

Why i tried VermX for the chickens was was i bought some for the dogs and one of the bitches realy picked up , tho i have to stress they are all wormed correctly 3 times a year if non breeders . i just wasnt happy tho in trusting something where i couldnt prove it worked or not. So from its claims of being gentle and harmless i went belt and braces and did the Flubenvet as well , which i now use and no longer use VermX .

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hillfooter

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Re: worming
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 15:11 »
Hi Rhiannon,

Quote
"When you say alternate wormers apart from Flubenvet what would you reccomend as i notice a lot of the others require egg withdrawal and there fore I assume a lot more effective and stronger  ?"

The withdrawal period says nothing about it's effectiveness so don't assume the others are stronger or more effective.

In the link I posted of the discussion thread you will note that one of the questions being discussed was to do with treat dosing using higher concentrations verses complete feed dosing with a lower concentration.  Aunt Sally considers treat dosing to be OK whereas I'm not so sure.  The recommended method is to treat all the feed.  Treat dosing is more convenient with small numbers of chx which free range but less accurate.  My concerns with not dosing all the feed is two fold.

1  Although the chx body will smooth out the dosage the concentration in the intestines will still fluctuate and the wormer works by starving the worms.  Cestodes (flatworms) feed on the partly digested food in the intestines and I'm concerned that being exposed to untreated feed interspersed with heavily treated feed on a short cycle will enable them to survive.  Aunt Sally is happy this won't happen.

2  Egg withdrawal is not required for Flubenvet but if this is based on testing with a continuous low level dilution it might not hold true for short peaks of high concentration.
I have however suggested a method which will give an adequate average level over 7 days using a treat feeding regime.  You might need to decide yourself whether you think this is OK.

Best wishes
HF
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 08:54 by hillfooter »



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