[prakash_mib]

There is always a thought occurs to me. we are in no way growing for profit or making money. Thats what F1 seeds are for. more produce, resistance to the elements and giving you picture perfect vegetables. But all the varieties of a vegetable tastes almost same/siimilar.
Why are we mutating towards F1 seeds rather than growing produced from local environment for hobby horticultural purposes.
we always know when we travel to cornwall we get the best cream tea in UK. That cream can be produced anywhere else. If they are produced everywhere else then there wont be a craze for specialized foods
So why are we just trying to grow everything that they grow john-o-groats to lands end or on a wider picture sub-tropics to nortern hemisphere?
the Vegetable should have the element of earth, water atleast to it when it is produced but we tend to forget them and want to beat the supermarket stuffs.
I know I am throwing a curveball but..... 

[hogchops]

i purposly wont buy f1 seeds, i would rather buy heritage /heirloom plants & choose varieties that are packed with flavour, even if they produce less.
i also try to avoid the big comercialised seed sellers to opt for smaller more unusual ones.
the tomatos i chose this year are, silvery fir tree, eva purple ball, john baer & tommy toe - all chosen for flavour - cant get them from t&m!
sorry if im waffling or changing it a bit,just cant stand how the big companys are screwing everything up........

[chimaera]

Am I cynical in thinking that as it is often no use trying to keep seeds from F1 because the F2 are so much poorer, people have no choice but to buy new seeds each year.
I go out of my way to avoid F1 for the same reasons; the only time I can see it justified is if there is a particular problem that only an F1 is going to reliably solve because you know its genetics (like if you need very rapidly maturing butternut, or clubroot resistant brassicas).

Charlie

[Swing Swang]

I'd disagree that all varieties of a vegetable taste the same - for example Oregon Sugar Pod Mangetout has a particularly fine flavour in my opinion even though I grow other (older/heritage) varieties as well. Toms/peppers/maize/kale etc. follow this pattern too. Mind you with leeks I'm pushed to tell the difference.

SS

[Trillium]

We all know there's method to the breeders' madness - world domination. Like the others, personally I use heirloom varieties 95% of the time as many of them have very fine flavours but weren't convenient in some manner for commercial processing. The other 5% I try something hybrid but rarely find the cost and/or effort worthwhile. Today's seed catalogues are like mind drugs - very difficult to resist with all those pretty pictures which rarely turn out as such for the average home grower. We live in hope that we too can make designer quality gardens which is rather incongruous as veg are far more filling than flowers  and the old standbys are just that - dependable 

[BelgianPhil]

I read an interesting thought on the Real Seeds website:
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/whyseedsave.html

To summarise: For thousands of years we saved our own seeds and had varieties that were pretty well adapted to local conditions. For the last 40 years we've been using large seed distributors and as a result we forgot how to save our own seeds and we lost the genetic diversity. As a result we're all trying to create a uniform growing medium.

[woodburner]

I try and buy heritage varieties, not so much because I have any realistic intention of saving seed, but becuase I do not approve of the ethos that produces seeds that can only be obtained from commercial producers.

And who knows, maybe one day, I'll get into the swing of saving my own seed, but at the moment, I am still trying out varieties to see which I like/suits my garden best.

[Swing Swang]

I like Realseeds, I like them a lot I and use them a lot - great bunch of people, reasonable sized packets, excellent customer service, quality products etc.  Having said that they do like their 'open-pollinated is best' mantra and I'm not sure that I'd endorse their philosophy in its entirety. In some respects they are just as evangelical as the Monsanto's of this world, but at different ends of the spectrum.

I believe F1 varieties have their place. F1 does not equal GM, and has often allowed us to grow a more extensive range of crops with increased disease resistance and higher yields than would otherwise have been possible. Flavour doesn't always suffer either. It's not just the commercial growers that can benefit, but us gardeners too.

Of my 5% F1s: Carrot 'Flyaway' F1 really makes a difference to carrot fly, the F1 sweetcorn varieties tend to perform better in my garden, Parsnip Gladiator F1 is very reliable, and Butternut Harrier F1 is the only butternut that I've managed to ripen outside. I'm not sure that Beetroot Wodan F1 conveyed any advantages to me, nor Courgette Defender F1 and I shall not bother with them again.

There is an issue with cost, but this seems to be a very British problem. From experience I find that in Portugal there may be fewer seeds in F1 packets, and they may be more expensive than open pollinated varieties, but the difference isn't as pronounced as over here and I really think that this is a case of 'rip-off Britain'. And remember there still isn't any VAT on veg seeds so like-for-like they're more profitable than flowers for the seed merchants.

I certainly don't buy F1 cabbages on cost grounds alone. I'm not prepared to pay a couple of quid (or more) for 35 seeds (or less [edit - fewer]). Mind you if I had club root I might look at things differently...

SS

[DD.]

Mind you if I had club root I might look at things differently...

I have bad club root.

Clapton F1 caulis were the first sucessful summer ones I've grown. Bred to be club root resistant & it did what it said on the tin packet.

[prakash_mib]

Flavour doesn't always suffer either. It's not just the commercial growers that can benefit, but us gardeners too.

couple of years ago I I tasted one of the best aubs grown locally, not from hybrid seeds and I havent tasted better ones before and after that. Flavour, texture etc suffer a lot on f1 seeds. c'mon you can buy juiceless toms, burpless cues and in future asparagus which makes your wee smelling sweet! By far I can say / seed companies guarantee the flavour/texture will be different from the original vegetables.
Produce is much less than the F1 seeds but certainly the interest in growing becomes a moot point. Are you trying to be self sufficient/beat the supermarket stuffs or are you trying it as a hobby and want to taste the real flavour.

[Swing Swang]

Prakash - I did say flavour doesn't always suffer (my italics). Granted, it often does, but not always.

SS

[JayG]

I think some of the new varieties developed over the years have been very successful, some rather mixed, and some just don't "work" as claimed.

F1 supersweet sweetcorn allow delicious cobs to be quite reliably grown in parts of Britain where it would have been almost impossible using the unimproved varieties.

Stringless runner beans (OK, not F1) really are an improvement when it comes to the tenderness of the pods but I feel that some of the flavour has been lost compared with the older varieties like Scarlet Emperor.

F1 strains which claim to have a particular disease or pest resistance I'm not sure about; Gladiator parsnips are claimed to have good canker resistance, but I've found them neither better or worse than any others (may be a bit unfair here; they are still a very good parsnip and they don't claim they are completely immune.)

What is surely not in doubt is the fact that there is a much wider choice of seeds available than even 10 years ago, and when I last checked we were still free to choose! 

[Yabba]

I kinda like the "unknown" factor of non f1, smidge more reliable than the "unknown f2"

Whilst I'm naff at it, I try and save my own seed ... this year I've managed runners, borlotti, chilli, garlic and walking onions, so a long way to go ... something I wouldn't even consider if I grew f1's.

The (hopeful) bonus is: the seed I save will be more and more adapted to *my* growing conditions ... and lazy bum style

¥

[AlotArds]

Well done yabba, i might try that this year.
I have got to the stage were I can't stand F1, I bought some sweet corn, cabbages this year, and to be honest the F1 failure rate was very high, so much so I will not be paying the extra next year, I'd rather buy the cheaper seed and loose some than waste my money on F1

 

[Kristen]

I grow F1 for:

Asparagus - grew F1 male-only variety. Should be an advantage - fatter spears and no self-seeding.

Cauliflower Candid Charm - had much better success with this than ordinary varieties (and other folk here also reported that last year)

Cucumber - F1 variety with only Female flowers - which saves a job! Also Mini Munch F1 which suits the kitchen - small fruits, harvest often, rather than a left over half-cucumber curling up in the fridge!

Sweet corn Mini-pop F1 - which the kids love. no idea if mini-cobs are available non-F1 ?

Sweetcorn Swift F1 - much sweeter, dwarf which enables them to develop cobs one leaf-joint lower, and thus be done before the end of the English Summer


Petunia Pink Orchid Mist - single colour with double flowers - which is what I particularly wanted


I am also growing F1 varieties for no particular reason where I need very few plants and the tiny number of seeds / £ doesn't matter to me, or that was the first packet I choose in the garden centre:

Aubergine Enorma F1 - no idea how it compares to others, although it is flowering much earlier than non-F1 Black Beauty

Courgette Green Bush - I think I've always grown that; never thought about F1 or not for Courgettes

Kohl Rabi - Kolibri F1 - I liked the purple colour. Grew them over-winter in the greenhouse along with some non-F1 Lanro. The Kolibri didn't make any "ball" so chucked them on the compost heap ...

Leek Carlton F1 - came free with something, germination terrible. Unless the few that I have managed to grow are amazing will stick with Mussleburgh in future - as before!

Melon Edonis F1 - can't say I notice any improvement. Lots of T&M "hype" on the packet though! Sweetheart F1 was a success last year though. The other non-F1 melon I grew last year (about 5 varieties in all) were much-of-a-much-ness

Onion Kalmat F1 - first year of growing Onions from seed - I think this packet came with John's book am growing some non-F1 too, so I'll report back if these are dramatically better!

Radish Mooli F1 - grew very well last year, but not grown it before so no idea if the F1 variety was "better"

Squash Cobnut F1 growing for the first time, and also some non-F1 seeds from "a friend" which I grew last year and they were fantastic - be interesting to see if Cobnut is better.

Tomato Shirley - was good last year, but not sure any gain over other non-F1 Tom's I've grown.