Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Poultry and Pets => The Hen House => Topic started by: pink-chicken on October 29, 2009, 08:26

Title: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on October 29, 2009, 08:26
After reading some very helpful 'sticky' advice about worms it seems as if this is the best product? Can someone please help with a couple of questions if possible. I believe there are two types of Flubenvet and only one is available without a 'mixing license'? Does Flubenvet also kill Gapeworm? Not that the girlies have these, I very much hope not anyway, but it would be good to know that it also treats for them just in case. Also who is the 'cheapest' supplier for the small chicken flock owner?

Many thanks in advance for any advice  :) Just off food shopping now  :tongue2:

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Roughlee Handled on October 29, 2009, 10:12
Flubenvet does kill gape worm.

Cheapest supplier? Try a local feed merchant then you will not have to pay for postage.

http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=Flubenvet+&hl=en
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on October 29, 2009, 15:38
Thank you Stuart  :) that's good to know as Gapeworm sounds awful  :ohmy: Just off for a look at the link now.

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: hillfooter on October 29, 2009, 16:24
Never heard of a mixers license are you sure such a thing exists?   I've always bought the gamekeepers 240gram tub which has a 2.5% concentration of the active ingredient.  I now see that there's a 60gram premix tub with 1% active ingredient aimed at us poor suckers who just keep a few hens.  It seems to be about half the cost which as it contains a tenth of the active ingredient means it's 5 times more expensive than the 2.5% which is a pretty good mark up premium for Janssen the manufacturers.

The 2.5% is a little difficult to use if you are mixing less than about 5Kg of feed as you are dealing with such a tiny amount of medication.  I usually work in volume rather than weight.  5ml of the 2.5% weighs approx 5.5grams and will medicate 4.5kg of feed enough for 5 chx for a week.  When mixing always do enough for the week working on 900grams of feed per chicken per week (unless you have a better figure for your chx) and adjust the amount of medication proportionally to the weight of feed you are medicating.  There's little danger from over medicating as the medication has been tested wth no ill effects too over twice the recommended dosage but obviously try to be accurate and mix well.  If you use the 1% premix you will need 2.5 times the amount of Flubenvet I've indicated above.  I've heard of people putting a pinch in a grape to worm individual birds which seems an awfully crude measure and not what I'd recommend.  Also it's important that ALL the feed gets medicated not just some as the idea is to provide a continuously poisonous environment for the worms so they can't escape ingesting it, not just a high concentration every now and then.

If there's feed left over after 7 days you can let it run on a couple of days but don't add unmedicated feed to it as feeding a weak concentration can expose worms to a non lethal dose and breed resistance.  Discard what isn't used after 9 days.

If you use pellets add a small amount of corn oil to just colour the pellets and make the powder stick and not fall to the bottom.  Mix well well and then sprinkle the powder thinly on the top surface while mixing.  You need to medicate their feed for a week and feed NO other food other than the prepared medicated feed so that they can't avoid the medication by picking out the unmedicated feed.  I've seen people recommend mixing oats as a marker to check how well it's mixed but don't do this as you don't want them just picking out the oats which might not be uniformly medicated.

The less often you move your chx to clean ground the more attention you need to pay to worming regularly.  6 weeks in summer and I usually do 5 wormings per year.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Vember on October 29, 2009, 16:25
This tells all about the new rules & regs Hfooter :)

http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=46390.0

Sarah :)
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on October 29, 2009, 16:27
Never heard of a mixtures license are you sure such a thing exists? 

There is more in heaven and earth Horatio  ;)

http://www.petmeds.co.uk/p-3359-flubenvet-medicated-premixture-240g.aspx
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Kate and her Ducks on October 29, 2009, 17:23
Ah, there was a perfectly good product and no-one had a problem mixing it into their feed. Then the same product but more expensive, in lower concentration, smaller amount and, oh did I mention, more expensive, came out.

And then for some reason we need a mixtures liscence to use the product we have had for years...

Why?
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on October 29, 2009, 17:29
The evil eye of commercialism backed up by the Nannie state  ::)
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Kate and her Ducks on October 29, 2009, 17:36
Ooh, you've got me started on pharmaceutical companies...

Better go and lie down in a darkened room with a glass of wine...
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Kate and her Ducks on October 29, 2009, 17:37
does remind me though that I need to worm my ducks soon.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Kate and her Ducks on October 29, 2009, 17:38
Will have to use my hoarded tub of old flubenvet before it expires. :tongue2:
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on October 29, 2009, 17:41
Deep breathing in a brown paper bag for you Kate.


Or the wine  :lol:

Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on October 29, 2009, 19:34
Thank you everyone for your replies  :)  We've had the girls for around four months but thought that they'd been wormed already as they were vacinated. I found a long thin wiry worm  :tongue2: in some kind of 'fluid' in their pen this morning which has spurred me on to buy the wormer. I thought they only needed worming every six months but maybe more often is advisable? Our girlies eat layers mash so I'm hoping to get a good mix of flubenvet in there? I've been wondering if they get the daily 'dose' of flubenvet in one 'meal' or whether I have to spread it over the day divided between each bowl of mash, if that makes sense?

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Roughlee Handled on October 29, 2009, 20:25
Deep breathing in a brown paper bag for you Stuart.


Or the wine  :lol:



Why thank thank you Aunty and its Thirsty Thursday as well.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on October 29, 2009, 21:00
Yopu naughty pink frog  :ohmy:

I said Kate not Stu.  ::)
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: poultrygeist on October 29, 2009, 21:28
Thank you everyone for your replies  :)  We've had the girls for around four months but thought that they'd been wormed already as they were vacinated. I found a long thin wiry worm  :tongue2: in some kind of 'fluid' in their pen this morning which has spurred me on to buy the wormer. I thought they only needed worming every six months but maybe more often is advisable? Our girlies eat layers mash so I'm hoping to get a good mix of flubenvet in there? I've been wondering if they get the daily 'dose' of flubenvet in one 'meal' or whether I have to spread it over the day divided between each bowl of mash, if that makes sense?

Jan.x

With layers' pellets, you can mix it with about half their daily feed and when they've had it all, you can top it up. That way you know they've had it all between them, as long as there's not a hen being bullied away from the feeder (maybe split between two feeders?).
I presume you can mix the same with mash as pellets but it's just a simple mixture rather than having to mess about coating the pellets by hand.

7 consecutive days.

Good luck  :)

Rob
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on October 29, 2009, 21:43
Thank you Rob, I will mix it that way. Very luckily none of our girls are bullies and there seems to be no pecking order. One or two may be a little greedier than the others but I expect it all evens out over the 7 days.

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: hillfooter on October 29, 2009, 22:26
[[/quote]

With layers' pellets, you can mix it with about half their daily feed and when they've had it all, you can top it up. That way you know they've had it all between them, as long as there's not a hen being bullied away from the feeder (maybe split between two feeders?).
I presume you can mix the same with mash as pellets but it's just a simple mixture rather than having to mess about coating the pellets by hand.

7 consecutive days.

Good luck  :)

Rob
[/quote]

Hmmm there's a bit of a problem here with the, put it all in the morning feed method.  The ammount of medication is meant to balance with the quantity of feed therefore there's no "daily allowance of Flubenvet.  Each chicken is meant to be dosed according to weight and feed intake is a reasonable measure of this.   If you try and give a daily dose how much Flubenvet do you put in the morning feed without knowing how much they are going to eat in the afternoon?  Also you are assuming birds eat evenly through the day whereas one bird might eat more in the pm and another more in the am so they won't be getting a proportional amount of the medication.  It's far easier to make up your weeks supply of feed in one batch (keep it in a storage bin) and just keep feeding that untill the weeks up, what could be simpler.  Flubenvet lasts for about 2 months in a feed so no problems about it losing its effectiveness. 

With mash I guess you'd need to stir it each time you used it to keep it evenly mixed.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on October 29, 2009, 23:03
The larger the birds the more they will consume of the medicated feed so getting the correct dose BUT...

my hens freerange about my garden and on some days eat almost no chicken feed.  I therefore give flubenvet to them all in one go at the same time each day on a treat -  chopped grapes usually"
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: joyfull on October 30, 2009, 06:29
on sweetcorn for mine, like yours auntie as mine free range so somedays they eat so little of their pellets
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: hillfooter on November 02, 2009, 13:06
The larger the birds the more they will consume of the medicated feed so getting the correct dose BUT...

my hens freerange about my garden and on some days eat almost no chicken feed.  I therefore give flubenvet to them all in one go at the same time each day on a treat -  chopped grapes usually"
_____________________________________________________________

I'm not sure that this method of administering Flubenvet would be effective against all the species of worms it is intended to kill.  For example worms which live in a chx digestive tract get their nourishment from the part digested food the chx eat.   Only medicating a single meal means the worms will not be exposed to the medication continuously over the 7 days.  (Note This scenario is not the same for those which get their norishment from the digested food or blood stream for which the uneven application of medication is smoothed out by the chx metabolism).  I have checked this point with Madeleine McVie of Janssen Animal Health and below is a paste of the emails.  Obviously if you don't want to curtail the chx frree ranging livestyle during the treatment you will have to risk that the medication they are getting is sufficient.  See below  which you can make of it what you wish.
Regards

"Subject: RE: Flubenvet - medicating the feed

Thanks for your reply Madeleine,

I’ve been using Flubenvet for many years now and I certainly follow your advice with my own chickens and advise people who buy birds from me to use it in the manner you suggest.  However I know some chicken keepers who believe because their birds free range and don’t eat so much fed feed they aren’t getting the correct medication so they offer a daily allowance in a single treat feed.  I’m concerned that as Flubenvet treats a broad spectrum of worms some of which live in the digestive tract and get exposed to the medication from the part digested food the chicken has eaten.  Feeding the daily allowance in a single meal will mean that these worms are exposed to a higher concentration after eating the medicated feed and have no exposure at all at other times.  Would this be detrimental in killing the worms, ie would allowing the worms access to unmedicated feed, rather than continuously medicated feed, during the worming period allow them to survive the treatment?

Best regards
Terry


Good morning Terry

Thanks for your email.

As I’m not sure how these owners would be calculating what a days medication is, I cannot say whether the chickens would be dosed at the correct rate so I would advise against this method of dosing.  
The higher levels in a single feed won’t do the animal any harm, however it is not clear if they would be getting the full dose as needed and are therefore not being fully wormed.

For free range chickens, we recommend confining them for the week of treatment, to ensure they are only fed the medicated feed.  We have not done trials using only one medicated feed per day so I cannot give you a definitive answer to your query, other than to say we don’t recommend it.

I hope this helps

Kind regards"

Madeleine McVey
Animal Health Technical Advisor
Finance Administrator
Janssen Animal Health
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pinkladies on November 02, 2009, 13:57
Hi my girly`s are coming up to six months and I thought i would worm them just in case as they free range around the garden! i started last Wednesday so finish tomorow .I have been putting a pinch on a grape and hand feeding one at a time so making sure each of my six girls get dosed they love grapes so it`s realy easy. Whats interesting is that once I started the course I could see worms in thier poo ( yuk yuk ! ) so I guess not only did they need doing but the Flubenvet must be working , when should I think about doseing them again , six months ? or just keep an eye on thier poo ! ......Shirley
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on November 02, 2009, 17:38
It is fine the way I outlined hillfooter.  OH is a parasitologist and spend his life with poo :lol:  He regularly checks samples for me so I know it works that way :) 

... but thanks for taking the trouble to ask them.  It's another case of "we haven't done the right tests so can't give an answer"  also I trust OH more than a finance administrator ::) ;)
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: hillfooter on November 02, 2009, 18:05
Well I wouldn't want to quarrel with your OH Auntie so I suppose if you've found this works, all well and good.
 Regards
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: joyfull on November 02, 2009, 18:11
mine have their daily dose on sweetcorn this way I know they have had their share  :D
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on November 02, 2009, 18:43
Thanks hillfooter - he saves human lives too not just chickens  :lol:
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 03, 2009, 18:07
My Flubenvet arrived today and after reading instructions it all semmed fairly complicated to my aged brain  :wacko: Quantity x 6 gram per food batch for four girlies or per girl etc? I think I'm going for the easier option of dosing their sweetcorn as they gobble every last bit of this up. As for their mash we have one girl who ignores it at breakfast until she's had a good hunt around for lurking worms, slugs etc. so I'm thinking she wouldn't get as much as the others at breakfast.  :blink:

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: rossivale on November 03, 2009, 19:10
Hi

Is the Flubenvet suitable for ducks too?

thanks Jo
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: too many girls on November 03, 2009, 19:21
Hi my girly`s are coming up to six months and I thought i would worm them just in case as they free range around the garden! i started last Wednesday so finish tomorow .I have been putting a pinch on a grape and hand feeding one at a time so making sure each of my six girls get dosed they love grapes so it`s realy easy. Whats interesting is that once I started the course I could see worms in thier poo ( yuk yuk ! ) so I guess not only did they need doing but the Flubenvet must be working , when should I think about doseing them again , six months ? or just keep an eye on thier poo ! ......Shirley

when you've finished doing yours, would you please come and do mine the same way? i have 104,
 bring your own grapes :D
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: raeburg on November 03, 2009, 19:23


when you've finished doing yours, would you please come and do mine the same way? i have 104,
 bring your own grapes :D
lol :)
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: hillfooter on November 03, 2009, 21:05

when you've finished doing yours, would you please come and do mine the same way? i have 104,
 bring your own grapes :D

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head TMG.  Individually worming chx by putting an indeterminant amount of Flubenvet in a grape just doesn't scale beyond a small number of chx.  Certainly this isn't a viable method for me even if I could work out how much to give and measure it out individually.

Re Ducks - I can't see that it's mentioned on the leaflets and package though geese are.  Try asking Madeleine McVey on mmcvey@its.JNJ.com who is Janssen Animal Health's technical advisor.

Regards

Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on November 03, 2009, 21:07
It is not licensed for ducks i.e. they have not done the tests, so Ms McVey will not be able to give you an answer.  A number of duck keepers on other forums/web sites use it with no problems.

This is just one of them : http://www.callducks.net/worms.htm
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Foxy on November 03, 2009, 21:56
Interesting, I dont there there is much research if any on small scale backyard flocks, well in the numbers we consider small scale!
However, due the digestive process I can't imagine it makes much difference on a grape or in the feed, my only concern would be any adverse effects due to overdosing.
Chooks digestion is in a state of permanent activity due to their high metabolism, the rate food is released from the crop(storage) into the main digestive engine of the chicken also varies from bird to bird. :D
If I was at all concerned or suspected health issues due to high worm load, I would send off for a worm count or check at PM. So far, despite free-ranging my birds the count has been insignificant, so maybe the health risk of worms and prevalence has been blown up somewhay (or Janssen-Cilag have!)
Title: Flubenvet Act II...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 03, 2009, 21:58
QUOTE: 'It follows therefore that the dose rate for the 1% formulation would be 0.12 x 2.5 = 0.3g per day = 2.1g total for the 7 day treatment. The scoop enclosed in the pack measures out approx. 6 grams and would therefore be enough to treat 3 hens for 7 days.' END OF QUOTE:

PLEASE help my addled brain!  :( We have four nice sized Warrens... Our Flubenvet 1% arrived today.. Can someone please work out VERY simple quantities to give them? Is it 6 grams per hen, per four, per day, per week?  :wacko: I promise I'm not normally gaga but I've had a day of information overload :blink: :(

Jan.x 
Title: Re: Flubenvet Act II...
Post by: DD. on November 03, 2009, 22:02
Can't help you pink-chicken as a non chicken person.

What I do know is that this ought to follow on from your other thread, so I'll merge the two togther.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on November 03, 2009, 22:02
I agree with all your post Foxy.  All animals carry a few worms they only become a problem when the worm burden gets large.

Quote from:  our sticky
The risk to chickens of contracting worms is very variable.  A small worm burden is natural for all birds and will usually not cause a problem.  If you just have a few hens in a run or in your garden the risk is quite small and wild birds is normally the only way they will get them, you may choose to worm these hens less frequently.  If the land you have your birds on has been used for hens for a long time the risks are higher.  The greatest risk is to large flocks of free range birds, you may choose to worm these more frequently.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: DD. on November 03, 2009, 22:03
Sorry for the intrusion.

I'll wipe my feet & leave now.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 03, 2009, 22:09
Thank you DD sorry about that. I just thought maybe someone would see my plea a little easier if I started a new thread  :unsure:

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: DD. on November 03, 2009, 22:40
No problems pink-chicken!

A little patience is all that's required and if you look at the thread you'll see that someone, (Foxy), posted 2 minutes before your new thread hit the forum!

I lurk in the GYO bit, but one thing I do know is that there are a lot of hands on, helpful people in here.

OK - back to my peas now.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 03, 2009, 22:56
LOL enjoy your peas DD, just off to peak at Foxys post now  :) I panicked worrying about the girlies all carrying around massive amounts of worms. Me and my over active imagination  :)

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: DD. on November 03, 2009, 22:58
I can empathise.

I worry about my peas as well - they have feelings you know!
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 03, 2009, 23:30
LOL I'll never eat another pea again without worrying about its feelings now  :wacko: Ripped out of its jacket and boiled alive, I don't want to come back as a pea  :)

Jan.x
Title: Re: Flubenvet Act II...
Post by: hillfooter on November 04, 2009, 01:58
QUOTE: 'It follows therefore that the dose rate for the 1% formulation would be 0.12 x 2.5 = 0.3g per day = 2.1g total for the 7 day treatment. The scoop enclosed in the pack measures out approx. 6 grams and would therefore be enough to treat 3 hens for 7 days.' END OF QUOTE:

PLEASE help my addled brain!  :( We have four nice sized Warrens... Our Flubenvet 1% arrived today.. Can someone please work out VERY simple quantities to give them? Is it 6 grams per hen, per four, per day, per week?  :wacko: I promise I'm not normally gaga but I've had a day of information overload :blink: :(

Jan.x  

____________________________________________________________________

Hi Jan,
I've lost this thread a bit so if someone's already answered your question my apologies however here's a simple answer to your question for 4 L/F birds using 1% Premix.

___________________________________________________________________________
Measure out 4KG of feed, add two scoops (2X 6grms) of wormer.  Mix REALLY well and feed this exclusively for 7 days.  
___________________________________________________________________________

WHAT TO DO WITH THE LEFTOVERS
(You'll probably have about 400grams left over which you can continue to feed for a further two days if you like or throw away.  Don't add further unmedicated feed on top as you don't want to let them have a weak dilution which might breed resistance in the worms)

HOW THIS IS CALCULATED FYI
Remember 2 facts - they must be medicated for 7 days continuously, and using the 1% Premix the feed medication rate is 3grams per kg of FEED.

So first you need to calculate how much feed you will need for all the birds for 7 days. If you know your birds consumption use that, but if not work on 900grams per week, per L/F bird. So in your case that's actually 4 birds X 0.9kg = 3.6Kg (make up 4kg for ease of using scoop measure).

HOW TO MIX
Using a large container (a trug is ideal) and rubber gloves sprinkle some corn oil onto the pellets and mix well so that the pellets are just slightly darkened but not softened so they disintegrate.  The oil prevents the powder settling. Sprinkle the two scoops of Flubenvet powder over the surface in several batches, as evenly as you can, and mix really well as you sprinkle each batch.  

If you feed mash don't use the oil but use the mixture in 4 batches topping up the feeder every two days which you should remix each time you top up so the powder doesn't settle out.

You now have 4kg of medicated feed you can fill their feeder from and feed for the week.

HOW TO AVOID BEING CONFUSED
Don't try to follow the rather convoluted instructions provided by Janssen and stop thinking about how much medication each bird needs per day.  They will eat the requisit amount of wormer for their weight provided you don't feed them anything other than the medicated feed.  So NO treats or unmedicated feed.  If they free range it's best to confine them so they don't eat too much unmedicated food.  Don't worry about overdosing, Flubenvet has been tested at upto 2.5 times the recommended dosage with no ill effects. I prefer to slightly (<20%) overdose than under.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: AmandaH on November 04, 2009, 09:13
OH is a parasitologist

Euw.  Does this mean he keeps nasty looking things in the fridge?  I have visions of there being all sorts of little plastic boxes with his little parasitic friends in...

*Shudder*
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: pink-chicken on November 04, 2009, 09:37
Hi hillfooter, that's brilliant and certainly does help thank you, you've made it sound much simpler I can understand exactly what to do now.  :D I had been thinking about amount per bird etc. and Janssens instructions are really confusing. The girls are used to layers mash so I will carry on with that. If it's OK I will copy and keep your instuctions and will then have them handy for future reference.  :)

Jan.x 
Title: Re: Flubenvet...
Post by: Aunt Sally on November 04, 2009, 09:57
Oh no Amanda  :ohmy:  He wouldn't want anything in my fridge to contaminate his specimens  :lol: ;)

I've added your mixing advice to our worming sticky hillfooter- thanks for taking the time to type it all out  :)