Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Smallhold Farming and Rural Living => Property, Buildings, Equipment and Alternative Energy => Topic started by: grinling on April 14, 2011, 21:23
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Moving to lincs and no gas :ohmy: There is an oil fired boiler with the smallest amount of oil and a boiler I've no idea how it works. Has anyone had experience of a wood pellet or wood boiler and what is involved and how much?
There are radiators and a hot water tank.
Thank you
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We have just had a visit from a company selling and installing wood pellet boilers( as well as others) We were told they were far more efficient and made from the stuff that normally goes to waste.
It was a system which had a water tank with it ( ours is currently electrically heated - the norm in France). We currently have radiator central heating. From what we understood it was an on demand system, self lighting ( which many log boilers aren't) . running costs were a third of oil, but the system was about €16000.
We have not shopped around at all, I am sure there will be cheaper options available.
they are becoming more popular in France as opposed to oil boilers.
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You should be able to find your make and model on line if you Google. They are said to be fabulously efficient. Lucky you :)
Lucky to be moving to Lincs too. My niece lives there, in the sticks, as loves it.
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Our central heating combi boiler is powered by LPG gas which seems to be about twice as expensive as piped gas. We've also got a multi-fuel 9Kw stove which supplements the central heating.
The multi-fuel runs on either coal or wood or a mixture of both. We're not in a smoke controlled area so use ordinary house coal rather than the more expensive smokeless 'coal' Over last winter as the price of mains gas went up, so did the LPG (except we were on an initial fixed price deal, but our neighbours were not) So did the cost of coal and logs.
My point is to approach your problem from the supply end. Sustainably sourced wood is very green, near carbon neutral but actually quite expensive. A large sack of logs (softwood) costs £3 and a 20Kg bag of coal currently costs £4.60. But the coal gives off a lot more heat - so it's quite a lot cheaper. (I'm sure someone could do calorific calculations and quantify but that's our experience). We did have a load of free scrap wood given us - can't get cheaper than free!! :)
If you're looking for a new boiler then I'd suggest some research into a ground source heat pump. They suck heat from a network of pipes in the ground and concentrate it into the house rather like a fridge in reverse. For every unit of electricity used they deliver 3 to 4 units of heat into the house.
I think you may be able to get a feed in tariff or grant - another thing to look at - with a heat pump.
The one thing those of us on expensive fuel realise quickly is that the payback times for additional insulation, good controls on the heating etc are reduced.
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Thanks for the replies. Will need to do quite a bit of homework, ground work fine as it is a big garden also thinking of wind power. Can't do cavity wall as I don't think there is any.
It is all very confusing esp to someone who has always had gas central heating.
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We had gas central too until 6 months ago and the mother of all winters... great time to move :)
To us, at 200 M high, wind power would seem sensible but reliability of the turbines seems to be an issue.
There are other options than cavity wall, like internal or external insulation but we're back to price and return on investment. Our insulation plan for this year is to add 20cm to the loft insulation.
The long term plan is to plant enough trees around the place to provide our own wood fuel. However, heat pumps and solar water etc will have to wait a while - the savings have gone with the rebuilding.
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Like you we'd always had gas central heating, we moved in january to a big old house with no gas. It has a thermorossi multifuel boiler, a big beast of a thing.
We initially tried to run it on solid fuel/logs as we'd bought some solid fuel from the previous owners but for some reason the pump kept tripping in and out. The previous occupents kindly returned to give us a teaching session 'again' and said we needed to maintain the temperature between such and such (I forget now).
Anyway, after two weeks of OH living in the boiler room and nearly dying of hypothermia we put 1000 litres of oil in the tank and changed over to oil, bliss, heat at last. The next morning about 500 litres of oil was on the floor, the tank leaked :ohmy:
We bought a new tank on ebay (unused) and are running the oil down gradually to replace it. I suspect the problems with the pump and solid fuel are more to do with the boiler, something we need to sort out at some point because the heating system works perfectly on oil.
To save money we've opened up the fireplace in the lounge, something I was dead against at first. We have an abundance of logs and plenty of trees need removing so it made sense. I have to say I'm so glad we did. At this time of year it's nice to light the fire early evening and as it has a back boiler it's given us hot water as well. I suspect we will need to change the boiler at some point but for now the house is a little money pit and we have lots to do but I'll think long and hard about the next heating system.
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Had a good look.
Ground floor heating would be good if I could put underfloor heating in, but the floors are layed to tiles and a parquet floor and warm air heater is noisy.
So still looking at wood boiler. Downloaded lots of interesting fact sheets, but it isn't very easy to find an installer in Lincs, the land of no gas.
I will try to find help down here as I would like to have hot water available by the time we move.
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Is solid fuel an option,take a look at the Trianco TRG range.
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We also looked at Air source pumps which did not require underfloor heating, but our house was too big for these to be efficient.
Ground source do not need underfloor, they are just more efficient that way.
We have our own wood, but have been told that the log burning boilers are not efficient and the wood pellets/granules ( which look like rabbit food pellets) release 93 percent thermal energy, but it does seem silly buying in wood when we have plenty of our own!! ::)
Another thing I have seen, although not really looked into is heating elements in skirting boards, from what I remember they do not require the heat of the radiator, and are more like underfloor heating.
We have mage the decision to stick with the oil, get more insulation, as we have worked out that oil would need to increase dramatically to outweight the outlay of the boiler when we do not need a new one.
We have learnt to live with more jumpers!! and also noticed fewer family colds this year!
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Hubby deceided that we will get a boiler engineer in to take a look at the boiler. I am assuming the metal box outside is the boiler and how things work is beyond me!!! Also get him if possible to look over the oil tank which has been empty from at least last December, as I do not want it leaking the moment we try to fill it. Would it say on it how much oil it takes?
We have time to play before we move, but I do worry about such things :)
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Also get him if possible to look over the oil tank which has been empty from at least last December, as I do not want it leaking the moment we try to fill it. Would it say on it how much oil it takes?
We have time to play before we move, but I do worry about such things :)
You're right to worry, the tank leaking for us was un unexpected expense and we lost about £300 worth of oil overnight, we could have done without the expenses and I suspect the previous owners knew. I'm not sure how they check if a tank is intact but I imagine they have ways.
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Ground source do not need underfloor, they are just more efficient that way.
We have our own wood, but have been told that the log burning boilers are not efficient and the wood pellets/granules ( which look like rabbit food pellets) release 93 percent thermal energy, but it does seem silly buying in wood when we have plenty of our own!! ::)
Another thing I have seen, although not really looked into is heating elements in skirting boards, from what I remember they do not require the heat of the radiator, and are more like underfloor heating.
The COP drops right off if you raise the temperature above 50 degrees. Standard Rad systems work on a flow temp of 80 - at this temp you'd be lucky to get a COP of 1/1.5 which would make this an epensive option. You could size your rads to work on a lower flow temp but the size goes up dramatically (underfloor works on a flow temp of 35-45 degrees).
The amount of heat you get out of the wood is down to it's moisture content - very wet green chips give you very little heat per kg (i.e you need to burn more of them), logs have a fairly high moisture content, pellets tend to have a low moisture content BUT they are processed and dried which adds to the carbon footprint of this type of fuel. It's horses for courses, as John said supply is your biggest issue - if you have a free and steady supply of wood - use that it might not be as efficient but it's free! One of our clients is using green chip with a mositure content of 60/65% - I don't dare tell him the efficiency is less than nothing but he has a zillion acres of forest up in scotland and it suits him.
Maintenance is an issue with these boilers if you are using high moisture content fuel.
Skirting heating only gives you 100-150 W/m of heating so is a good supplement heating if you have large glazed areas etc but would struggle to heat a whole room on it's own in the depths of winter.
Try Wood energy
http://www.woodenergyltd.co.uk/
they generally cater for bigger systems (from 45kW) but they may be able to put you onto someone who can help. I'd try and help but I deal with systems from about 400kW upwards for district heating systems. One of our other engineers did have a smaller system (15 kW I think) so i'll ask him who he used and pass on their details.
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one thing I didn't mention for all those on oil, have you looked at some solar thermal panels to redcue your oil usage?
you can pick up a system for £1500-£2000 now a days (CAVEAT! - depending on the size of property and water usage - could be double this for larger houses etc).
Would save you quite a lot on your fuel bills and is a green technology.
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found these guys - not used them so don't take this as a recomendation but they have the support of the relevant bodies (DEFRA and REA).
They've put boilers in around lincolnshire by the looks.
http://www.englishwoodfuels.co.uk/case-studies/item/4/domestic-wood-pellet-boiler--lincolnshire/
somewhere to start anyway?
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There is an option with GSHP systems and ordinary radiators, keep them on all the time at a lower temperature. You can get small fans that fit onto the radiator so sucking the heat out faster and distributing it into the room.
Our 9KW multi-fuel throws out enough heat to turn off some of the radiators and heats the granite hearth up which acts like a heat store over night. Our main thing when we moved in was to heat up the walls and drive out the damp, after which the house was a lot more comfortable.
We'll be buying a load of logs soon which will be stored under cover to dry out. We also keep a pile in the hearth so the moisture content is pretty low before they go on. Don't forget, prices of solid fuel and wood tend to fall in the summer. Not sure about oil and LPG - suppose they're more related to international events than demand
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Property has 2 6x8 sheds so storing wood should be o.k
Thinking about 2 stoves, 1 for the small sitting room and the other for the long dining area.
Thank you Bluedave for the info, will continue to check things out.
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In Canada, oil tanks have specific life spans, which are tagged, and once the span is reached, oil suppliers are legally obliged to refuse to fill the tanks (due to massive cleanup claims aimed at the suppliers). No idea if you have anything similar in the UK. Once the tank is replaced, then fills can begin again. You'd need to try to trace back and see how old yours is, and if over 25 years old, replace it.
I had a combi burner at my last house and the wood came in very handy when the power went out. I could even cook in the furnace with the door open - a nuisance, but at least we had meals. I really warn against using too much softwood as creosite buildup is horrendous with softwoods. You'll need to use only hardwoods for your main burning, and softwoods only for startups.
Don't forget that chimneys will need regular cleaning with heavier wood burning. Sometimes twice a heating season if you burn regularly. Once a year with only infrequent burning. I truly wish mine had been hooked up to a water boiler system.
As for wind generators, the health problems with them are starting to crop up and we now have lobby groups trying to ban further installation of the big wind towers. I see a few personal wind towers up and they seem to be locked lately by the owners, and a few were taken down. No idea what the reasons are but they were a waste of money obviously. But I see a lot more solar panels up these days, moreso with farms mounting them on drivesheds. New drivesheds are now specially constructed and aimed for maximum solar collection.
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Moving to lincs and no gas :ohmy: There is an oil fired boiler with the smallest amount of oil and a boiler I've no idea how it works. Has anyone had experience of a wood pellet or wood boiler and what is involved and how much?
There are radiators and a hot water tank.
Thank you
Let’s start at the beginning
LPG 7.11 kW per liter. About 54p a liter but with big variations per contract IE 45p to 65p
Oil 10.35 kW per liter about 60p a liter little variation but ahs gone up to 100p plus during the bad weather
Both assume 100% efficiency (new boilers are about 90%)
Therefore LPG has to be 30% cheaper to be = to oil. It rarely is but there are times (recent bad weather) where oil goes up dramatically way over the price of LPG (like for like). This does not make Oil an automatic choice as it needs more maintenance it is extraordinary expensive for cooking and I believe the boilers are more expensive and take up more room.
Both assume 100% efficiency (new boilers about 90%)
Therefore LPG has to be 30% cheaper to be = to oil. It rarely is but there are times (recent bad weather) where oil goes up dramatically way over the price of LPG (like for like). This does not make Oil an automatic choice as it needs more maintenance it is extraordinary expensive for cooking and I believe the boilers are more expensive and take more room.
LPG Tank gas (not bought in bottles) requires a 2 year contract but at the end of the contract it is now much easier to change suppliers. They the present supplier is required to sell the tank to the new supplier at a price decided by a formula (the tank is rented normally at £60 a year). Although they must now supply you with a contract which state how much they can raise the price by they are not obliged to stick with it. Once they break the contract you can change suppliers but you can not hold them to it. You should think twice about going down the LPG route if there is a limited amount of suppliers in your area. I have 7 (some will be of no use IE far too expensive) while other areas only have 2!!
Check here http://www.uklpg.org/supplier-search/search.php
Now there is plenty silly people who think that using alternative energy as an extra is a good idea it is not. They are junk in they do no pay back the money within the life of the product IE wind and solar (solar in England??? nuts). Wind can actually use electricity in some circumstance and are noisy and unsightly. Although a new system which is in test and runs along the ridge of the roof and is up to 10 times more efficient (and not unsightly) is looking like a sane solution. It uses the increase in speed as the wind goes up the roof just like an airplane wing.
All my research on ground pump shows little or no benefit unless you do it with at least 2 of your neighbors and you have the right ground conditions. So future wind power (for your house) is a possible although direction of wind and speed relative to roof will make a big differance.
Now should you go for the wood pellets option NO definitly not although it is the (cheapest according to them and claim 2.5p per kwh note not 100% efficient) you are captured customer and the more people who go down that route the higher the cost in the future i.e. supply and demand.
The cheapest is has always been Economy 7 and by long way. Note I use E7 for environmental reason only I have no electric heating.
6.72p per kWh (day)
The first 900 kWh 19.56p per kWh (day) = to a £9.80 standing charge per month
3.16p per kWh (night)
I assume electricity is 100% efficient?
Note these prices are very low BUT a new tariff now would have near identical night prices and 10p day time prices (all prices are based on the Lincolnshire Wolds & Scottish power)
Note if you only use electricity then you should not count the standing charge as you have to have that with all the other options in other words you are double counting.
Now I know there will be a lot of negative remarks about E7 heating by people who either live in the past or are ignorant of the facts.
A/ the loss of heat during the day is now much much smaller due to excellent insulation of the radiators and running out of heat is much less likely as house insulation is much better.
So what would I go for if I was starting from the beginning?:- Well I would
Heat by new method an accumulator tank (see below for info and sales). They can be heated by anything electricity solid fuel, gas, oil and if you wanted to all of the latter at the same time. They are basically a very large immersion tank (very large) which is so heavily insulted that it only losses 2 centigrade per 24 hours therefore 1 centigrade per day (assuming your using it) and I would add/back it up with a wood burner with a boiler (wood can be very cheap I have had 3 years for virtually nothing or in some areas if you buy it in a lot more expensive than any other fuel) or an oil boiler or if I had to use LPG heating I would use bottles instead of tank IE no contract and rental (LPG suppliers will never agree to supply you with less than 1000 liters a year if you tell them that’s all you are going to use). I would basically be using Electricity to heat Wet radiators.
Look it up everything I said to help you. Oh by the way I use LPG (47ppl) and only used £130 at today’s prices plus £60 rental. I bought a wood burner (does not do central heating) and turn the central heating on for an hour or two in the winter BUT this is based on free wood I have no guarantee it will last. Although it has paid for the £2000 wood burner and the fitting and I am now in profit. PS I live in a 2 bed bungalow.
For accumulator tank see and others
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Accumulator-hot-water-tanks.html
E7 compared to LPG at 7.11 KWh and 100% efficent at a price of 47ppl (cheap and not 100% effcient)
E7 Day time 6.72p KWh LPG 6.6 KWh
E7 Night time 3.16 a KWh LPG 6.6 KWh
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found these guys - not used them so don't take this as a recomendation but they have the support of the relevant bodies (DEFRA and REA).
They've put boilers in around lincolnshire by the looks.
http://www.englishwoodfuels.co.uk/case-studies/item/4/domestic-wood-pellet-boiler--lincolnshire/
somewhere to start anyway?
Excellent shop in Binbrook for wood burners has huge showroom on small industrail estate next to firestaion.
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Property has 2 6x8 sheds so storing wood should be o.k
Thinking about 2 stoves, 1 for the small sitting room and the other for the long dining area.
Thank you Bluedave for the info, will continue to check things out.
Hi grindling my conservatory is full of plants and the windows are covered in condensation? If I go out and open the windows the condensation will go. Remeber that when you put wood in an enclosed space. The air in my conservatory has reached 100% humidity it will do so in your wood sheds if you do not allowe it to escape. Once 100% humidity has been reached your wood will stop drying and start rotting. JB
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Had a good look.
Ground floor heating would be good if I could put underfloor heating in, but the floors are layed to tiles and a parquet floor and warm air heater is noisy.
So still looking at wood boiler. Downloaded lots of interesting fact sheets, but it isn't very easy to find an installer in Lincs, the land of no gas.
I will try to find help down here as I would like to have hot water available by the time we move.
The people at Binbrook will sell and recomend a fitter for you and there is no shortage of them in Lincolnshire (solid fuel fiters). They do have quite a few on there books. No doubt the fitters give them a "kickback" for recomending them but I couldn't actually find anyone doing it cheaper who was both qualified and had lots of experience. The latter is in my opinion is a lot more important. PS there are wood burners that have pipes above them (2 or 4) which suck air into other rooms ,might be worth looking at personally if I was you I would go for the accumalator tank as you already have oil and you could use E7 which could then be backed up by your oil. I would have done the same If it was available when I changed my gas boiler......the benefit of hind sight!
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I live in an area that has no gas supply. We inherited only an open fire for heat and later put in a solid fuel open fire with wrap-around boiler for hot water and CH - it wasn't that efficient. When the boiler burst, we had a replacement fire exactly the same model but without the boiler. It was amazing how much more heat it put out. We now have no central heating system but rely on the open fire, a modern paraffin heater halfway up the stairs and a couple of convector heaters and one oil-filled radiator which we use only very occasionally. Last January we had our bathroom re-done and installed under-floor heating which is supposed to be remarkably cheap according to the literature supplied, plus a timer on the immersion heater. We kept well warm last winter.
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Thank you for your replies. I'm hoping that the place will dry out nicely once we get our hands on the keys. Once in lots to do, but hope to get stoves in for winter.