Super Summer!!

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arh

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Super Summer!!
« on: September 20, 2018, 20:38 »
Just an indication of the super summer of this year. The FIT payment was over £100 pounds more this year, compared to last year, even after being adjusted due to the price readjustment, (if one gets my drift).

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JayG

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2018, 08:03 »
Thought I was missing out on payments for being fit, although I fear I wouldn't qualify anyway!

Having gurgled it, I see the feed-in supplements for solar energy end in April next year, so you've definitely made hay while the sun shone.  ;)
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John

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2018, 13:04 »
Having gurgled it, I see the feed-in supplements for solar energy end in April next year, so you've definitely made hay while the sun shone.  ;)
Those who signed up for it early got the highest rate which the government has progressively lowered. Happily, if you get it you get it for 25 years from installation. We made it into the system one day before the rate dropped!
Our last FIT payment which covered the summer basically was the highest we've had. On average over the last 6 years we've generated 3,485 Kwh pa. Since March we've generated 2,982 Kwh to date and expect to end up around 3,700 Kwh Our best year so far was 2013/14 at 3,613 Kwh.
Financially it took just under 6 years to recoup the investment of £8,500 - that's taking into account we could have invested the money at a nominal 2%.
The FIT is inflation adjusted .. currently I don't know of a risk-free investment that pays equal to inflation.
It's not totally free power - we'll probably have to replace the inverter at some point and the panel efficiency falls as they age. However, the cost of inverters has fallen and continues to do so whilst their efficiency improves. By the time the panels need replacing they'll most likely be a lot cheaper and far more efficient than they are now. If we had the same system installed today, I think it would cost between £5,000 and ££6,000!
My prediction is that in 20 years time every house could be fully powered by solar panels for less cost than big power stations. The real breakthrough we need is in storage. Cheap batteries would revolutionise our power systems.
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JayG

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2018, 15:30 »
Be interesting to see what the economics of if all look like when the subsidies stop for new installations, especially if the price goes up because the demand for them has fallen off a cliff... :unsure:

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John

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2018, 15:50 »
Be interesting to see what the economics of if all look like when the subsidies stop for new installations, especially if the price goes up because the demand for them has fallen off a cliff... :unsure:
Sadly even the current level of FIT doesn't make financial sense. I think it's stupid and shortsighted of the government who seem committed to nuclear even if viable alternatives are available. The Swansea barrage is another example of that.
I'm not rabidly anti-nuclear power but I've never heard of a solar panel meltdown.

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JayG

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2018, 16:29 »
With a payback time without subsidies after next March of up to 70 years, now doesn't look like a good time to be planning on going into the solar panel business!  :nowink:

Looks like the Government got their sums serious wrong when they dreamt up FIT as a way of promoting green energy, although how it compares in the long term with subsidising new nuclear power stations is anyone's guess!  :ohmy:

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arh

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2018, 21:43 »
You're about right there JayG, There are no FIT payments now and the bottom has dropped out of the solar panel market, which is why no-one is bothering anyone with pesky phone calls any more. I had ours put in in December/January 2012/2013 and there was a price drop in April I think. We also paid around £8000 and I keep a check and record each quarters output and payment, but I haven't bothered totaling etc. The main benefit is that the electricity/gas bill is, (on average),less than half price as we try to do as much as possible when the "tick" is on, we have a "smarty type meter" which shows how much we are generating and produces a "tick" when we are generating more than 75 watts, and an all electric kitchen (induction). Personally, if I ever moved again, which I won't until one of us is dead, I would probably do it all again.

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al78

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2018, 21:55 »
Be interesting to see what the economics of if all look like when the subsidies stop for new installations, especially if the price goes up because the demand for them has fallen off a cliff... :unsure:
Sadly even the current level of FIT doesn't make financial sense. I think it's stupid and shortsighted of the government who seem committed to nuclear even if viable alternatives are available. The Swansea barrage is another example of that.
I'm not rabidly anti-nuclear power but I've never heard of a solar panel meltdown.

The problem is trying to scale renewables to meet the demand of the UK population, and it is a big demand. If you look at the typical current generation capability per square kilometer of renewables, and work out how much land would need to be used to build enough to satisfy UK electricity demand, you end up with a figure that is something of the order of a quarter to half of the UK's total land area.

There is your problem. If you want renewables to contribute significantly to electricity generation you need a lot of land, and sea if you build offshore wind farms. Renewables are a very dilute source of energy. Conventional power stations have electricity generation densities hundreds of times higher, which is why you can build on in a squre kilometer, rather than needing hundreds of square kilometers for a comparable solar or wind farm.

The second problem, which is related to the first, is that people in the UK love saying no to things. No wind turbines, they are an eyesore. No nuclear power, the waste is an issue and it's expensive. No hydro, it is destructive to the inhabitants of the valley that gets flooded. No tidal, bad for wildlife. No solar farms within my visual radar. People in the UK need to wake up and smell the reality, if people insist on using so much energy and are not willing to make lifestyle changes (another ugly  no-no concept) to reduce energy demand, then we have to look at how we provide our population with power, and look at all the options and their consequences.

As far as solar PV is concerned, given the cloudiness of the UK climate, it would be arguably better to build the PV in sunny countries and import it.

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John

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2018, 11:51 »
I take your points, al78, but the renewables make a contribution and it could be increased. Even in one of the wettest and therefore cloudy parts of the UK we still generate 3,500 Kwh pa from a small roof. What we use directly involves no transmission losses (I think they're around 40%).
Thing is, removing the subsidies as they have done has killed the industry here. I think FIT was too high, for us it is a gravy train. We paid the investment off in 6 years and have guaranteed income for another 19 years. It would have been better to have a lower FIT worked out to produce a return to pay off the installation in say 10 years and limit the FIT to 10 years. Still worth installing as we would get free power afterwards at a lower cost to the taxpayer.
Don't forget, all those people who had jobs in the industry were not claiming benefits but paying taxes. I'm not an economist so I don't understand why it makes sense to give money to the banks via quantitive easing but not to support green energy.
Right, time for me to get off my soap box and cut up some pallets to keep us warm through the winter!

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Goosegirl

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2018, 13:34 »
We live amongst farms on the flat moss land near the sea. Next door's farm has a small wind turbine which works well for them because it's very rare that we don't have any wind. If we were younger we wouldn't mind one in our field at the back but not at our time of life.
I work very hard so don't expect me to think as well.

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arh

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 07:18 »
Well put John, I think you have said it all. The only thing that I would like see is legislation for all new builds to have panels put on as standard, this would lower the cost significantly, and on top of the price would be minimal, (other than ripping off to increase profits of course,  :mad:). As you yourself know, there are a lot of times that we are putting leccy back.

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al78

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 09:05 »
Well put John, I think you have said it all. The only thing that I would like see is legislation for all new builds to have panels put on as standard, this would lower the cost significantly, and on top of the price would be minimal, (other than ripping off to increase profits of course,  :mad:). As you yourself know, there are a lot of times that we are putting leccy back.

I'd agree with that, and go further by installing rainwater harvesting, decent insulation, and designing houses so they use passive heating and cooling (e.g. shading in summer but which lets the sun through the windows in winter). Unfortunately, as long as we are locked into the neo-liberal capitalist growth growth growth consume consume consume money and the here-and-now is more important than anything else, nothing will change until the laws of nature force it to change, by which time it will be too late. Developers are not interested in houses with added expense like clean energy, they want to cram the maximum number of houses on a given plot of land, and sell them for as much as they can get away with for maximum profit. That is why modern houses are small, have a tiny or no garden, and are right up against the neighbours.

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mumofstig

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 09:28 »
A lot of people would never afford to buy any house at all, if all those systems had to be added to build costs, though, If you look at it from another viewpoint.
Only the better off can afford all those extras, even self builders tend to drop 'desirable extras' off their wish list as the reality of build costs take hold.
Here all new council housing is being built with solar panels, so a start..

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John

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 10:30 »
A lot of people would never afford to buy any house at all, if all those systems had to be added to build costs, though, If you look at it from another viewpoint.
Only the better off can afford all those extras, even self builders tend to drop 'desirable extras' off their wish list as the reality of build costs take hold.
Here all new council housing is being built with solar panels, so a start..
We already have to build with a high standard of insulation. Designing to provide passive solar heating and shade shouldn't add to the build cost. Surely a solar panel that acts as roofing material rather than being stuck on an existing roof can't be too hard. Rainwater harvesting for flushing toilets is far cheaper to put in as part of a build than a retrofit.
Our first house was built in early 1939 and actually had a big rainwater tank that fed into the kitchen to give soft water for laundry.
In Wales new housing has to have a fire sprinkler system installed - which I believe is expensive.

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Growster...

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Re: Super Summer!!
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 17:27 »
"Our first house was built in early 1939 and actually had a big rainwater tank that fed into the kitchen to give soft water for laundry.
In Wales new housing has to have a fire sprinkler system installed - which I believe is expensive."

My dad built his house in 1952, with an underground cistern for rainwater. It was pumped up into the roof tank with a hideous whining sound every time a tap was turned on!

The water was of course, soft and perfect for washing, but for drinking we had a filter and never thought anything about it!

As for sprinklers John, this clip may be relevant. Richard is an old friend of mine, and the tragedy is still among us.

Why Have a Fire Sprinkler | Ultrasafe Fire suppression



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